Historic in the future
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Ohio



Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:46 pm    Post subject: Historic in the future Reply with quote

This is an interesting forum. And I read some of the articles in the library, too. And now I am afraid of mildew. I've always hated it, but now I know how truly sneaky and evil it is.

Which leads to why I'm posting.

We're building out house this summer and I'm building the casement windows out of clear vertical grain Western Red cedar. It's affordable up here in the Pacific Northwest. (Ohio is my name, not where I live. Yes, you can laugh. And yes, it's on my driver's license.)

I don't want to paint the cedar. The CVG I have is lovely stuff and the design of our house is very very simple, allowing the vertical grain of the wood to contrast nicely with the white plaster interior and stucco exterior (1:1:6 lime/cement/sand ratio mix).

But I have questions...

1. Is tung oil a good finish for cedar? I read in the articles that mildew likes organic stuff, including tung oil. Should we be considering something else?

I HATE mildew. It's gross. I try accept that living things have a right to live and everything, but when it comes to mildew, I refuse to keep my mind so open, my brain falls out. I hate it and I don't want it in our new house. Period.

Our maintenance schedule is annual---seriously. We'll be limewashing probably every other year and I planned on running over the exterior windows with tung oil at the same time. We'd be doing the interior every time we dust by using a tung-oil rag.

Unless this is too stupid. But the house is simple for a reason, one of which is to allow us to maintain it even when we're very very old and very very feeble. Which, at the rate my to-do list is growing, may be a lot sooner than I anticipate.

2. Allback's website suggests brushing shellac onto the rabbet of our casement windows before putting on the putty. If we go with tung oil, is it necessary to do the shellac? Will the tung oil stop the wood from sucking up the linseed oil from the putty?

3. We're using double-glazed windows with insulated glass. Would it make more sense to route a channel down the middle of the sash, line the channel with putty, slide in the glass before the glue-up, then seal the glass with more putty? I understand that if the insulated glass loses it's seal, it has to be replaced---I have a plan for that, but would it be better if I just follow the traditional glazier's corner's and putty method?

Or should I use a wood stop?

And are there issues with the insulated glass and window putty?

I'm concerned about the weight of the insulated glass versus a single pane, that's why I'm thinking about these other methods. Regardless of which way we go, I'll M&T the sashes and probably use pivot hinges.

Sorry, I know my questions aren't strictly historical, but we're trying to follow tried-and-true methods. Everyone else I ask shrugs and tells me to use silicone. But allowing water vapor to ecape from the house is as important as stopping water from getting in. We have 4' eaves all the way around the house and I'll get the sill to extend 2" from the stucco wall and cut a drip kerf in the udnerside, but will a historical method serve our purposes?

Thanks for any insight and if I've overstepped or posted inappropriately, I apologize. My woodworking buddies can help me with joinery, my glass artist pals can help with glass stuff, but combining the two has made a lot of people skulk away, even though I have offered them cocktails to answer my questions.

[edited because I can't type worth crap]
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ohio:

(cool name)

Quote:
people skulk away, even though I have offered them cocktails to answer my questions.


An offer of dinner might be more enticing than cocktails. We're more like a beer bunch anyway.


Quote:
1. Is tung oil a good finish for cedar? I read in the articles that mildew likes organic stuff, including tung oil. Should we be considering something else?


If you like the appearance of the wood, use a penetrating water-repellant preservative.

Quote:
Our maintenance schedule is annual---seriously. We'll be limewashing probably every other year and I planned on running over the exterior windows with tung oil at the same time. We'd be doing the interior every time we dust by using a tung-oil rag.


You plans for maintenance must be commended! On exterior wood, retreat with water-repellant preservative when ever the surfaces loose their resistance to water. The quick test is to splash on a little water, if it beads up, still good; if it soaks in, another application of water-repellant preservative is needed.

Quote:
Unless this is too stupid. But the house is simple for a reason, one of which is to allow us to maintain it even when we're very very old and very very feeble. Which, at the rate my to-do list is growing, may be a lot sooner than I anticipate.


This is NOT stupid, it IS an excellent plan.

Quote:
2. Allback's website suggests brushing shellac onto the rabbet of our casement windows before putting on the putty. If we go with tung oil, is it necessary to do the shellac? Will the tung oil stop the wood from sucking up the linseed oil from the putty?


In this country shellac is not consider to be water resistant enough to use in the glazing rabbet. It apparently is the standard in Sweden. Any alkyd-resin primer or oil would work and is what I use. I have just done a side-by-side test of shellac and alkyd oil in the rabbet. (results to come in a future year or decade)

Quote:
3. We're using double-glazed windows with insulated glass. Would it make more sense to route a channel down the middle of the sash, line the channel with putty, slide in the glass before the glue-up, then seal the glass with more putty? I understand that if the insulated glass loses it's seal, it has to be replaced---I have a plan for that, but would it be better if I just follow the traditional glazier's corner's and putty method?


DO NOT use any ordinary putty with insulated glass units. The putty will probably be incompatible with the sealent in the units and cause pre-mature failure. Strictly follow the glazing instructions from the manufacturer of the glass units. (also be aware that the seals of many insulated glass units have failed and continue to fail within 10 to 20 years and fog up no matter what you do, which you might want to consider in your long-term maintenance plans. Single glass glazing has been proven over the centuries to be a good maintainable system. For engergy conservation use exterior or interior storms, interior curtians, or a double wood sash system as is common in European traditions. Insulating glass units are one of those systems that sound so good people cannot resist buying them, but they are relatively new and unproven over the long term.)

Quote:
Sorry, I know my questions aren't strictly historical, but we're trying to follow tried-and-true methods.


"Tried and True" is what we do. The only true test of building materials and methods is the test of time. We learn our lessons on buildings that are one and two centuries old. Most of these lessons apply to new buildings as well as old buildings.

Stop back any time.

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Ohio



Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
DO NOT use any ordinary putty with insulated glass units. The putty will probably be incompatible with the sealent in the units and cause pre-mature failure. Strictly follow the glazing instructions from the manufacturer of the glass units. (also be aware that the seals of many insulated glass units have failed and continue to fail within 10 to 20 years and fog up no matter what you do, which you might want to consider in your long-term maintenance plans. Single glass glazing has been proven over the centuries to be a good maintainable system. For engergy conservation use exterior or interior storms, interior curtians, or a double wood sash system as is common in European traditions. Insulating glass units are one of those systems that sound so good people cannot resist buying them, but they are relatively new and unproven over the long term.)


Oh, man. Something else to worry about.

Poor me.

Anyway, the double-sash system you mention---do you mean the kind of windows that have a sash on the interior and exterior at the same time? The interior sah opens in, the exterior opens out?

I've only seen these in the movies, though I liked them.

Also, I noticed in the pictures on your homepage, someone is using a bridle miter on a sash. I like bridle miters for the sheer amount of gluing surface, but how about end-grain and water intrusion?

I suppose if we're maintaining the wood, that'd be less of an issue, esp. since oil and end-grain go together like...well, end-grain and oil.
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