wood stops instead of glazing putty?
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los angeles



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
Posts: 13
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the photos worked??? let me try for the next two:


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los angeles



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
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Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4th photo of related house


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los angeles



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
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Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting trip to the MSDS page for DAP Alex Plus

it contains up to 1% silica, which when synthesized with other things makes silicone.

although I was a great student in high school chemistry, that was a long time ago. I am not sure of the silicone content of this caulk.

in any case, the windows should be done in linseed oil glazing putty, but the road from here to there is a tough one
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squarehead



Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the storm sash I show up thread, the wood stops are set in an acrylic latex, then the sash was oiled once the sealant was fully set.

In the picture rain had been coursing down the surface for two day of continuous Oregon liquid weather. A 1993 application in a terrible exposure with no care except oil. I believe it was Pecora AC-20. The putty sash has failed but the exposed wood stop has performed.

I think that adding to the original system the acrylic latex for bedding the glass and the stop will be a good solution for Los Angeles.

D Square
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/movement.php

^ a useful calculator.

old growth redwood per that source, difference between 12% moisture content (common coming from outdoor stored lumber that was previously kiln dried in a humid environment) down to 7% (typical of sun exposed lumber on a warm dry day or interior trim in a building with dry forced air cooling/heating) is .04 inches over a span of 24 inches.

adjust those numbers down to 10% and 8% which is perhaps a more realistic range in southern california, which does not have extreme changes in temperature, and you're down to 20 thousandths of movement over a 24 inch span.

of course if your span is less than 24 inches that number would decrease further.

10 thousandths is 'good enough' for cope/stick joinery to remain stable from my experience, especially if painted. i would shoot for 5 thousandths to keep joints snug looking on stained things.

in my location we have extreme shifts from 90% humidity in the summer and 100+ degree temps to sub freezing temps with extreme low humidity in the winter. in that case, putty is the most flexible so putty performs best where we can expect large amounts of movement in wood structures between seasons.

as with all things, the environment matters.

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squarehead



Joined: 19 Apr 2011
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Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't noticed the length of sash parts to change at all. It is the width and thickness that move dramatically at times. This movement is always away from the glass and only applies at the depth of the rabbet where the movement would be rather small.

One of the reasons it's best to pin sash as close to the inside corners as practicable.

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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a good illustration of a wood glazing bead:

http://books.google.com/books?id=y8prai4JeOIC&lpg=PA229&ots=4BFjSaUeuN&dq=%22face%20putty%22%20%22back%20putty%22&pg=PA229#v=onepage&q=%22face%20putty%22%20%22back%20putty%22&f=false

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stick glazing with wood strips instead of front putty doesn't last very long unless the sticks are at least 3/4" and square in section. The thin strips warp and twist out of shape, especially if they are triangular in cross section. I've see three cases where it failed in just 2 or 3 years, here in Maine, New Hamsphire and South Dakota.

I have seen three case where narrow triangular stick glazing has failed.
I did a detailed investigation of the failure. The failure mode in both was that arrises along the acute angle of the sticks (where they meet the glass pane and the wood face of the sash) the paint film failed early because it was thinner right at the arris. (The sticks had been pre-primed and top coated, as recommended in an article that described this method of stick glazing.) This paint failure let moisture get into the wood, especially along the horizontal sticks facing upwards. There is not much volume of wood in the sticks so they get completely saturated and then give up the moisture quickly. This happens every time it rains. So, this frequent and deep cycling of extreme wet & dry stresses the wood enough to cause warping. In one case the wood was mahogany and the other was walnut, both relatively stable woods with changes in moisture content. Once slight warping started, the relatively small fasteners (in both cases stainless steel brads) loosened allowing greater warping, end joints opening up letting in more water, resulting in an acceleration of the failure. In the third case the outward appearance was exactly the same the other two cases, so I did not bother to do an investigation.

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Scott S



Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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Location: Orlando, Florida

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:10 am    Post subject: Wood glazing Reply with quote

Is there any documentation as to why doors were often wood glazed whereas windows typically had putty glazing. I see this pattern a lot across central Florida and always wondered why not putty for both.

My best guess has been that the wood glazing helped hold the glass better on a door which swings in and out. Since the windows usually move up and down the force on the glass to fall out of the rabbet is less and therefore putty was acceptable.

Any insights?

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the 1990s I was working at the Victoria Mansion in Portland, Maine. A strong gust of wind blew through the central hall and slammed one the of heavy walnut doors shut, breaking out the glass from the door. I happened to be standing right there when it happened. The glass came flying out of the door in one piece and then smashed onto the floor of the vestibule. The glass was glazed into the door in the ordinary way for windows with putty and points.

We replaced the glass, setting into place with wood stick glazing, figuring that would be stronger than putty.

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