Box Gutters- Replace or Line with EPDM?
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Historic HomeWorks Forum Forum Index -> Roofing & Flashing  
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
billydonn



Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 4
Location: Omaha, NE

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:19 pm    Post subject: Box Gutters- Replace or Line with EPDM? Reply with quote

My house has box gutters of the type shown below. It is time for a reroof and gutter repair or replacement. Two contractors have bid on the job and Contractor A proposes to remove and replace the metal gutters with 24 guage sheetmetal, while Contractor B proposes to line the existing gutters with EPDM. Contractor A says the cleaning of the gutters for proper adhesion of the EPDM is so labor intensive and expensive that it makes more sense to just replace them. That makes sense but I am concerned about whether he has the skills and experience to tackle the gutter fabrication. Should I insist on a different material than just 24 guage sheetmetal?

With all the roofing, flashing and redecking costs thrown in the costs of the two jobs are pretty similar so money is not an issue. What to do?

I would very much appreciate advice from anyone with experience in this area.



Gutters-348.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  5.61 KB
 Viewed:  8740 Time(s)

Gutters-348.jpg


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnleeke
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2940
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the original detail is sheet metal, that's probably your best bet, I would sure want to know what metal Contractor A is proposing. If it is lead-coated copper or tern-coat 24 gauge may be OK, but it it is aluminum I would want it to be thicker than 24.

Be sure they keep the original design of the woodwork, repairing or replacing any that is deteriorated matching the original parts EXACTLY, in size and wood quality. Also, while you have the sheetmetal off be sure to treat all the wood, old and new, with a good penetrating borate preservative, such as BoraCare.

Be sure the bottom of the gutter slopes to the outlets. Sometimes this detail was missing originally, but can be added. If the is already there be sure they keep it.

Most gutter work should meet the standard that no water is left standing in the gutters. This can be assured if the work is followed by a drainage test. Pour 5 gallons in the gutter at the end of the run, at least 5 gallons less one pint should come out the downspout at the ground, with no visible water left standing. Consider talking with your contractors to see what they think of this, and let us know what they say.

Keep in mind that some contractors may not be happy that you know this much about gutters, wanting to test and judge the character and quality of their work.

Did we meet when I was at the Restore Omaha conference a few years ago?

Who are the contractors? I know a few people in Omaha and might be able to get them to make some comments here.

_________________
John

by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
billydonn



Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 4
Location: Omaha, NE

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply John.
Looks like I will be going with Contractor A- a company called Premier Exteriors. The owner has shown good sensitivity for old housses and has looked me in the eye at close range twice and assured me he knows the difficulty of the box gutter metal replacement and is up to the job. The gutter job is described as "Remove existing gutter, repair rotted wood as needed, custom fabricate and install 24 ga. yankee guttering system with Kumar finish, pop rivited and stripped beneath and on top." For extra protection, we have agreed to line the new metal with either EPDM or a heavy duty rubber tape.

I will add your language on gutter slope to the contract... good idea.

Any other thoughts you might have would be welcome.

I don't think we have met unless it was in Portland, years ago. I have old friends there and used to visit quite often. Very good stock of old houses!

Don Greer
Omaha
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnleeke
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2940
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, Don, that sounds good.

Keep us posted on your progress. Feel free to upload pictures if you like.

_________________
John

by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
billydonn



Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 4
Location: Omaha, NE

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnleeke wrote:
OK, Don, that sounds good.

Keep us posted on your progress. Feel free to upload pictures if you like.


I will post some pics for sure. My house has some unique features in that all the soffits and outside crown mouldings are vintage 1915 sheetmetal and in decent shape. This should be interesting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JimmyJim



Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 6
Location: Highland Park, NJ

PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's important to know what type of metal he is using. Copper or stainless is best. Maybe it's ok to do this if he's just fixing the gutter and not a whole re-roof. Wondering if it's a good idea to put that rubber on top of that metal- would worry about water getting underneath and rusting. At least it's a heavy gauge. Good luck.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
johnleeke
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2940
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
custom fabricate and install 24 ga. yankee guttering system with Kumar finish, pop rivited and stripped beneath and on top." For extra protection, we have agreed to line the new metal with either EPDM or a heavy duty rubber tape.


These sound like modern methods and materials. Any time modern methods and materials are put into a traditional system there can be (or usually are) problems. Here are some questions to ask.

What is Kumar finish?

What metal will be used? What is the original metal that will be left in place? If dis-similar metals are used together they can deteriorate by galvanic corrosion.

If there are runs longer that 20' what will be done to prevent expansion and shrinkage of the metal due to temperature changes? Traditionally special expansion joints are used.

What is going to make the metal joints water tight? In traditional sheet metal systems like this joints are usually soldered for longest life. Modern sealant joints can only be trusted to be leak free for 2 to 5 years. If sealant joints are going to be used, can the sealant be easily repaired and maintained?

Will the EPDM or rubber tape be compatible with the Kumar finish and any sealants used? Get statements of compatibility from the manufacturers or documentation of long-term testing from the contractor.

While the contractor may have confidence in this combination of materials and methods, you might talk to him about how long he expects it to last. And how long do you want it to last? I wonder if he can provide documented cases of long-term performance?

To be frank, using pop-rivets and rubber tape sounds like modern shortcuts compared to traditional methods like soldered joints. I'm not saying it should not be done in the modern way, but if it is the service life before failures will probably be measured in months or years, and not in decades as would be the case with traditional methods.

Take a close look at the old system, specifically what methods and materials were used? How long did it last? If it lasted a long time, and you want similar performance then it might be good to reproduce those methods and materials.

_________________
John

by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
billydonn



Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 4
Location: Omaha, NE

PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kumar seems to be a color coating process used in sheet steels. All of the old steel gutters will be removed, rotted wood repaired and new gutters fabricated and installed... then covered with PDM or tape.

http://www.skumarsteels.com/colour-profile-sheets.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Housewright



Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 46
Location: Waldoboro, Maine

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Don and John;

Don, how did your gutters turn out?

John, can you recommend someone in Maine who is capable of replacing metal box gutters from a manlift? I just started a job where it turns out the galvanized sheet metal lining the box gutters has rusted through and need to be replaced. It seems that the metal is original making it about 125 years old. The lower three feet of the roof below the slates is all flat seamed, galvanized metal originally painted red. I have not taken the old gutter apart yet. I am looking forward to see how the seams and corners were originally constructed.

I need to give the customer a cost estimate since this repair was not part of the original scope of work and I am hoping to find someone promptly since the manlift rental cost is a factor.

Thanks;
Jim
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
johnleeke
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2940
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim:

Call Chris Closs at Maine Preservation to ask who would be good on those gutters. The number is 775-3652. Let us know who he suggests.

_________________
John

by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Housewright



Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 46
Location: Waldoboro, Maine

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not had time to call Chris. I have now seen how the gutter was originally built: the metal seams only lap 3/4", the corners were riveted. I was expecting the seems to be folded together to make them water proof. Apparently the metal was lined with a built up asphalt/burlap coating to make it water proof. I have looked online for other examples of box gutter construction, but I have not come across this method in any old books or articles.

The metal has rusted through in places but is strong enough so that it just needs a new liner. The owner likes the idea of using EPDM which seems reasonable to use a modern material in place of the asphalt/burlap except for how to fasten the bit which laps over the gutter.

Thanks;
Jim
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Historic HomeWorks Forum Forum Index -> Roofing & Flashing  
Post new topic   Reply to topic All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum