Problems (& Solutions) with Allback linseed paint
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Skuce



Joined: 08 Nov 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saskatchewan and Manitoba are huge Flax producers up here.

I give Allback paint a big thumbs UP. Positive feedback for sure. It just takes education for the system to work...like ALL coating systems.

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Drew Skuce
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Don Wagstaff



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Well, speaking of flax production may I off er the following reference

https://vimeo.com/52320031

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
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los angeles



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
Posts: 13
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:38 pm    Post subject: treating mildew on Allback paint Reply with quote

I've read the thread on mildew problems & Allback paints. Any advice on what to do after an Allback paint job has developed mildew problems?

My 100 year old house was painted winter-spring 2012 after being stripped down to its cedar siding by heat gun. A lot of siding was replaced. The mildew problem is concentrated in some areas of the old siding, especially on some siding that was removed and left exposed through winter rains (grrr), but it is not limited to those areas. Zinc white was not added to the paint. Los Angeles has a dry summer and only 15-20 inches of rain in the winter, but fall-spring there is nighttime humidity from the ocean.

I am on my own for the cure. The contractor is out of the picture. Long story.

Would treating with a 25% bleach solution followed by a coat of boiled linseed oil with 5-10% zinc oxide mixed in be successful? Would a new coat of paint with 5% zinc oxide be better?

Any alternatives to bleach? I understand that Allback touts their soap with (I think) glycol added, but does it work?

I am hoping not to have to strip down the wood again.
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One effective way to solve problems like this is to do a side-by-side comparison, testing out three or four different methods and materials. I usually make the test panels 3' x 3', but sometimes 1' x 1' is adequate. Keep good notes (written, photos, video, etc.) of the step-by-step procedures and materials you use in in panel. Then let the panels age. Over time it will become apparent which methods and materials work better than others.

The reason to keep good notes is so that you can re-create the method that has proven to work the best.

It is worth doing this testing for yourself, because there are probably key causes that are specific to your situation.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
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los angeles



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
Posts: 13
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John - Thank you. A scientific approach to testing is always a good idea.

I'm curious to see if anyone on the board has tried the Allback soap plus as an alternative to bleach, and if anyone has experience with bleach solutions going onto the Allback paint.

Also curious to see whether anyone has used zinc oxide (whether diluted in oil or in Allback paint) as a coat on top of fairly fresh (1 year old) Allback paint afflicted with mildew.

Once I have collected all the wisdom out there I will start the experiments and report back over time.

I'll also call the paint vendor (Viking) too, but I want to gather maximum information from other sources first.
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Victor



Joined: 07 Aug 2010
Posts: 35
Location: Pacific North West

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnleeke wrote:
Victor, just to confirm, in your test Windowsill # 1, did you use the Allback Zinc White alone as the paint?

And, did you do a test using the Allback Zinc White mixed with Allback Linseed Oil paint per their instructions?


The first question, that is correct. Zinc oxide alone.

Second question, I've restored and painted two more windows around October last year. And mixed the zinc white in with the paint, and so far everything is holding up.

It'd be nice to buy the Allback paint premixed with the zinc oxide.
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los angeles



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
Posts: 13
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Victor wrote:
johnleeke wrote:
Victor, just to confirm, in your test Windowsill # 1, did you use the Allback Zinc White alone as the paint?

And, did you do a test using the Allback Zinc White mixed with Allback Linseed Oil paint per their instructions?


The first question, that is correct. Zinc oxide alone.

Second question, I've restored and painted two more windows around October last year. And mixed the zinc white in with the paint, and so far everything is holding up.

It'd be nice to buy the Allback paint premixed with the zinc oxide.

---------------


Hi Victor

Would you please clarify a little more: The two windows you restored and painted in October 2012, were they windows 7 and 8, or did you go back to some of the windows that had mildew/mld on them? If they had mildew/mold, what prep did you do before repainting?

Thank you
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Victor



Joined: 07 Aug 2010
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Location: Pacific North West

PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

los angeles wrote:
Victor wrote:
johnleeke wrote:
Victor, just to confirm, in your test Windowsill # 1, did you use the Allback Zinc White alone as the paint?

And, did you do a test using the Allback Zinc White mixed with Allback Linseed Oil paint per their instructions?


The first question, that is correct. Zinc oxide alone.

Second question, I've restored and painted two more windows around October last year. And mixed the zinc white in with the paint, and so far everything is holding up.

It'd be nice to buy the Allback paint premixed with the zinc oxide.

---------------


Hi Victor

Would you please clarify a little more: The two windows you restored and painted in October 2012, were they windows 7 and 8, or did you go back to some of the windows that had mildew/mld on them? If they had mildew/mold, what prep did you do before repainting?

Thank you


They were the windows housed in window sills 5 and 6, and windows that I had not done anything with yet. To further clarify, I have not redone any work except what is explained below with repainting these window sills:

Window sills and remainder of the frames and trim were infrared heat stripped.

Sanded smooth with 60 grit.

Two or three coats of raw linseed oil.

Sealed with 2 coats of a clear penetrating wood epoxy resin. (Dr. Wood Rot).

Two coats oil primer, and two coats latex paint.

The windows were completely stripped with infrared heat and sanded smooth with 60 grit. Raw linseed oiled, and then sealed with the wood epoxy resin. Two coats again.

Then four coats of Allback linseed oil paint w/zinc white added.

Western exposure. They get soaking pretty soaking wet when its rainy and windy here. But are holding up well.

I'm wondering if using the clear penetrating epoxy if the primer is overkill, especially two coats of it.
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Oldschool



Joined: 05 Jan 2019
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:48 pm    Post subject: Updates in 2019 ? Reply with quote

Hello everyone I am a newbie who is looking for the most optimal paint for an old sash and was wondering if there have been any updates on lindseed oil paints ?

Seems like Viking products already come with Zinc added and based on old posts, Allback with Zinc added solve the mildew problem ?

Is this still considered the paint of choice for old sash ? If not, are there any suggestions ?

Thank you

SJ
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Allback paint and putty is enough different than the American made paints that it requires special attention, knowledge and skills that are not easily acquired.
I am still testing the Allback paints and putty, but not recommending them for anything other than testing.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
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cabinfeverarts



Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 116

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnleeke wrote:

"Conclusion

Paints made with zinc oxide and drying oils become extremely brittle in as little as three years. Paints containing zinc oxide exhibit severe delaminating problems after drying and especially zinc oxide paint on acrylic emulsion grounds. Even commercial lead white and titanium white oil paints containing zinc oxide become quite brittle after seven years of drying."


This is exactly my experience. I have been using Allback paint for over a decade and order through Viking. I want the Zinc free paint back! The zinc white has just dried, cracked and failed. Now all the Allback paints from Viking have zinc premixed in them. This is terrible news.

Another reason the zinc free option is desired is painting lime plaster. Lime and zinc will react. Not all projects are outside and/or have mold issues. Viking/Allback need to bring back the pure linseed oil paint. The zinc additive is terrible. If they keep it, they need to remove the label "50 year paint" from all their paint products. I prefer the prior option of buying zinc white separate from their pure paints and giving people the option to add it OR NOT.

Any leads on where to find pure linseed oil paint again? Just linseed oil and color pigment. Or any educational resources on how to make one's own paint with linseed oil and pigment.

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Sidney
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sidney, good to hear of your experience on this. How long was it between application and failure? Any photos? Did you use the pre-mixed or mix in the zinc yourself?
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cabinfeverarts



Joined: 05 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2016 was the application of Allback's premixed white with zinc. I noticed failure 2018..peeling at the bottom of the trim and mold anyway regardless of the premixed zinc. I have on the very same porch Allback white with no zinc from 2010ish with no peeling. But there is a difference. The white from back in 2010 was placed on old growth pine window trim onsite, pre-treated with Allback linseed soap extra (their former borate solution). The 2016 white premixed with zinc was on new oak trim painted offsite indoors and installed as door trim (so about 5 inches off the ground, not waist level or above like the window trim). So technically it could be a location or new wood issue, but I still just don't trust the premixed zinc since it just behaved so peely-like so fast. And with literature like this saying zinc makes paints become brittle, I don't even want to risk it. https://www.naturalpigments.com/artist-materials/zinc-white-oil-paint-color/

After posting in August, I did go ahead and made my own paint from linseed oil. It turns out Allback does make a zinc free white, but Viking has stopped supplying Allback paints in favor of Ottoson paints with premixed zinc in them. Viking has told me that Ottoson has "the right" amount of zinc mixed in and they are now only selling off their old Allback stock. "The right" amount is only playing a have faith in us game which I'm not volunteering to play. I could just get the Allback white without zinc from the next closest distributor (Canada), but I would have to pay extra shipping costs. So I chose to try making my own paint.

When I made my own paint, I first used Allback raw linseed oil and titanium oxide. It was as simple as stirring the two together. I wondered if I need to "mull" the paint, but I didn't. Seemed fine. Since I only had raw oil on hand at first, it did take "forever" to set, but it did eventually set. Since it was autumn, I had to finish my project fast, so I converted to boiled oil so it would set faster between coats. I am curious about trying the raw mixture again when I have much more time. All the theory says the raw is better, you just have to have the time. I wonder if I have a storm window off the house anyway in spring and only want to install in October, would at least the first coat of raw white paint be any different from the technique of using a base raw clear oil? And white takes so many coats to build up to a solid color, why not start the pre-treatment with some pigment?

I think in the long run mixing my own colors is smarter. I can always record my ratios and make the same colors decades later. This is going to be my issue with the Allback Brick Red which I have already used. Now that Viking will no longer supply it, I am going to have to figure out with pigments how to make a "brick red" to match what I already have on the house. But once I have my own recipe, I can always remake it in the future and not be at the mercy of any specific manufacturer or retailer who could easily go out of business at anytime.

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sydney, thanks for your detailed report.
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Keon



Joined: 14 Nov 2019
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Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a very interesting topic as it goes back so many years...

The mold and mildew on linseed oil paint (and putty) are actually yeasts (Aureobasidium Pullulans and Aureobasidium Melanogenum, the same yeasts that cause blue stains on fresh pine wood) and these yeasts contain an enzyme Lipase which make that they can digest the triglycerides in the raw linseed oil. This was discovered by a scientific research in the Netherlands by van Nieuwenhuijzen and others (*).

The only way to avoid the growth of these yeasts (mildew) is to make the linseed oil (or other vegetable oil) polymerize as fast as possible (days and not weeks). Starting point for this to happen, is to avoid the use of raw linseed oil!

Speeding up can be done by using pre-polymerized oil (expose it to air, blow air thru it, heat it, boil it,...) or by adding drying agents to it (Allback also adds a metal (Mn) salt as drying agent according their SDS. They even add it to their 'Purified' linseed Oil).

According to Tad Spurgeon, who does research regarding artist oil paints, adding calcium carbonate (marble or chalk powder) to the oil paint also speeds up the drying process (www.tadspurgeon.com/content.php?page=putty+medium).

Instead of speeding up drying, adding natural fungicides like thyme essential oil or lemon grass essential oil have proven to inhibit the formation of mildew.

As discussed in this topic, oxides of lead and zinc also have anti-fungus properties, just like other earth pigments, i.e. iron oxide, burnt umber, ...

Chemical fungicides are to be avoided (IMHO) as they are not only a hazard to humans and nature but also not very historic.
It is sad to notice that a lot of so called eco friendly oil paints contain fungicides (i.e. Brouns, Osmo, Rubio, Aglaia, ...).

Best of both worlds seems to be to add pine resin (colophony, rosin) like one small paint manufacture in Scotland does, the Linseed Paint Company (LPC) (www.linseedpaintcompany.co.uk, their website contains a lot of interesting insights). So far, LPC, is the only company I came across that knows (already knew) that mildew grows on raw linseed oil. (The owner of LPC took part in this discussion 10 years ago! Search for member "rosssams").

Pine resin is a natural fungicide and if mixed in the oil at an elevated temperature, it forms some kind of varnish with better drying properties than the oil alone.


Priming
Based on the above, priming the wood with raw linseed oil has to be avoided. Raw oil is thinner and will penetrate the wood deeper but the deeper the oil penetrates, the harder it is for oxygen the reach the oil in order to be able to polymerize it. The oil near the surface will polymerize faster, will thereby expand and might be blocking oxygen transport to the deeper oil.

The yeasts are able to grow quite deep into the wood - half an inch to an inch is possible! - so you have to be sure that the oil will polymerize at those depths.

If you want the oil to penetrate, it's better to use BLO and thin it with a solvent like turpentine.

The main question is, how deep is "deep enough" to protect the wood against moisture ingress?


Personal Experiments
I'm experimenting with lime wash, wood ash, Wood Bliss, chalk powder (window putty) and coconut oil as pre-treatment and/or prime coat.

Coconut oil has some anti-fungus properties while also being better in repelling water than linseed oil. Coconut oil is a non drying oil so I have to see if a coat of linseed oil on top of it will hold.

The above mentioned yeasts have a hard time surviving if the pH of the wood is above 8, with lime or wood ash, this should be achievable. Lime saturated with oil is transparent, so you can even use it in case of a natural wood look.


(*): These are the two reports of interest (you can use Google to retrieve them):
    - Elke van Nieuwenhuijzen (and others in 2018): " Vegetable oils as carbon and energy source for Aureobasidium melanogenum in batch cultivation"
    - Loes Peeters (and others in 2017): "Oil type and cross-linking influence growth of Aureobasidium melanogenum on vegetable oils as a single carbon source"

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