Parting Beads
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnleeke wrote:
One benefit of this annual growth ring orientation is that the fit of the bead in its groove will change less with changes in moisture content.

Is anyone else paying attention to annual growth ring orientation?

I've just checked my sample collection of 9 old parting beads from the 19th and early 20th century, the growth rings are going every which way.


i think it depends on the species.

for species prone to surface checks and end splits, i do my best to pay attention to grain orientation regardless of what the function of the end result is. for species that are more stable, not so much.
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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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Location: Fort Kent, ME

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rncx wrote:
i think it depends on the species.

for species prone to surface checks and end splits, i do my best to pay attention to grain orientation regardless of what the function of the end result is. for species that are more stable, not so much.


What species do you feel are more stable, and which are less so. How do these compare with the old growth species of the past (rhetorical i suppose...)
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I get it and I like it.

It's just like holding and hitting with a wooden baseball bat. You always hold the label up. The label is always applied so the growth rings will be parallel, and at their strongest, in resisting the force of hitting the ball.

I think this makes more difference when the parting beads are thinner. Here in New England parting beads are just 3/8" and sometimes 1/32 to 1/16 less than that. Elsewhere they are 1/2" so the growth ring orientation may be less important.

I just checked six windows here in my own 1899 house, all of the original parting beads that have survived have growth rings parallel to the plane of the window.

This also explains why my samples of parting beads have random growth ring orientation--they are all taken from broken beads!

Speaking with standard wood industry lingo this would be described as having a "flat-grain" on the wider surface of the bead.

New standard in my shop: Parting bead growth rings oriented for "flat-grain" on the wide surface for greater strength and longer service life.

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Last edited by johnleeke on Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike-in-Maine wrote:
rncx wrote:
i think it depends on the species.

for species prone to surface checks and end splits, i do my best to pay attention to grain orientation regardless of what the function of the end result is. for species that are more stable, not so much.


What species do you feel are more stable, and which are less so. How do these compare with the old growth species of the past (rhetorical i suppose...)


most of what we use for this sort of thing around here is cypress. it doesn't split all that much, even in rough boards its rare to find surface checks. it's very 'spongey' for lack of a better word, and there aren't that many rings in whatever you build that small because it's a fast growing tree. the ring density is pretty consistent regardless of the tree's age.

not to say that it can't happen, i'm sure it can be split along the rings just like any other wood species can, but it's not as prone to do so as the yellow pines i've worked with are, i don't think.

i do work with old growth yellow pines alot, though, and your example absolutely applies to them, you're right. as those rings get closer and closer together the stresses in the wood build to the point that alot of boards simply split open before they ever get to be made into something.

put it this way: when i buy old growth pine i prefer to buy the whole log from the base of the tree, or at least a squared log. i wanna see it in 'tree' form not 'lumber' form first. and out of the lumber from a log, i probably get about 65-75% of really good usable stuff. nevermind the waste from sawing the lumber from the log, 25-35% of the lumber itself winds up thrown away, due to long surface checks, deep splits, sap pockets, etc.
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 569
Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not getting this at all. There's no window stresses on parting stop other than weather. all of the failed stops seen or heard about here are done when atempting to remove.

If a parting stop is fitting properly snugly it ain't goin anywhere. And movement of sashes for any length of time will not cause splitting as seen in mike's pictures.

Because I don't overkill on the parting stop does not mean I have a lessor quality restored window, in any way shape or form. I just choose to focus on the really important issues of window restore. You know the one that can be used every day for 100 years or more.
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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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Location: Fort Kent, ME

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sschoberg wrote:
I'm not getting this at all. There's no window stresses on parting stop other than weather. all of the failed stops seen or heard about here are done when atempting to remove.


Well, you just gave an example of stress.

In that case it is infact torsional stress. Also you'd be imparting shear, to some small degree.

As far as stress from operating the sash, in a perfect world you're right. But in time, 10-20 years or more, if unmaintained (remember, its an imperfect world) the parting strip and sash can bind together. One angry homeowner can be all it takes to really test any parting strip. A ham fisted homeowner or other person, can easily make an inferior jambed up parting strip fail. I assume that was the demise of the strip in my photo. or maybe not. But if not than what would cause the strip to crack?

Keep in mind also, in this imperfect world, a loose window stop will allow a sash to jiggle back and forth and in severe example allow enough sash momentum to "bang" against a parting strip. how many bangs does it take to get to the center of a parting bead? (a-one, a-two-hoo?) alot, but in time these types of stresses can add up.

Its clear in the side-by-side (literally) example i gave that the grain orientation made a huge difference in the life of the parting bead. BTW, both of those parting beads are comfortably fitting and easily removable from their channels with zero resistance. They arent jammed into the casing in any way.
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, pertaining to the parting stop, you say you don't jamb them into the casing. So do you case them in the jamb?

I suppose that over the years there could be some downward stress from settling, but that usually just makes them out of square and that still wouln't put undo stress on the parting stop.
I will give you this though, through the years when or if a sash is taken out for repairs and then put back in, at that time there's a pretty good chance that an ill fitting new stop is put back in and nailed because the original well fitted one was broken cuz someone didn't know how to remove it without breaking it. Maybe that's what your seeing?

Ha, sometimes its best to stop and realize that the persons trifling with a small point are really on the same side of the bigger picture.

"Cut 'em and shuv 'em Steve"
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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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Location: Fort Kent, ME

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sschoberg wrote:
I will give you this though, through the years when or if a sash is taken out for repairs and then put back in, at that time there's a pretty good chance that an ill fitting new stop is put back in and nailed because the original well fitted one was broken cuz someone didn't know how to remove it without breaking it. Maybe that's what your seeing?


I understand your arguement, but the reality is, that the example i gave is real and illustrates what ive seen so many times. Assuming your hypothetical is true, the grain orienation would very much make a difference and the strip would remain intact.

In the case of the strips I showed, they were not loose, and they were not "jambed in" in any way, they fit perfectly. (i mean perfect... they go in with a solid "push" and stay in very securely... and come out with a gentle rocking wiggle while pulling.... these were 100% unrestored pieces, yet well worn)... only difference between the two was that one failed and one didnt, and they had different grain alignments.

We're on the same page, but my opinion is we shouldnt cut corners anywhere when longevity and quality of worksmanship, methodology is on the line.

We ALL can learn something from ea. other. Ive certainly learned alot from you, John, rncx and others. In time you may accept this lesson, or not.. but its out there now for to do with what you may.

Cheers!
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i wasn't really disagreeing with you, i think it's a good practice, just a simple matter of looking at the end of the board before you line it up against the saw fence ;).

just stating that the likelihood of a failure within a certain timeframe is as much dependent on the wood species itself.
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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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Location: Fort Kent, ME

PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rncx wrote:
i wasn't really disagreeing with you, i think it's a good practice, just a simple matter of looking at the end of the board before you line it up against the saw fence ;).

just stating that the likelihood of a failure within a certain timeframe is as much dependent on the wood species itself.


You weren't the disagreeing party on this one... And I do agree about the species.

Which reminds me... what do you think about Oak? Im not 100% confident it would be a good species for this, although its very hard, it seems to be "wrong" and surely isnt very historically accurate for a parting strip? But would it perform as well as others?
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have worked on 200 year old windows that were entirely white oak, including parting beads. All parts of the windows were performing admirably.
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Skuce



Joined: 08 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

White oak makes total sense since it's water tight
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yep, white oak is one of few domestic species that i would consider good for 'whole building' use. can be used inside and out, for trim and floors too since it's commonly available in 12+ foot lengths, and holds up just fine outdoors. it's not endangered in any area it natively grows in afaik, since it reaches maturity relatively quickly (100-200 years) versus the old growth softwoods which really aren't mature until the 250-300 year timeframe.

as for its historical use, the old timers had an advantage over us, in that there were old growth softwoods readily available to them at an inexpensive price. therefore they didn't have to use more expensive hardwoods on many things that we have to due to lack of availability of the old growth firs and pines.

many of us don't have that luxury, since those old growth softwood forests are mostly gone. so if the old growth softwoods are price prohibitive or not available at all, i think white oak is a perfectly good replacement for newly built things.

note that's white oak only. red oak will not work outside, due to the large open pores in the grain. it will take on too much water and quickly rot.

Quote:
Its wood is the best and most valuable of the white oaks, although wood of most of the other white oaks may be marketed with it. White oak is relatively rot resistant. It was a signature wood used in mission style oak furniture by Gustav Stickley in the Craftsman style in the Arts and Crafts movement. White Oaks have cellular structures called tyloses. Tyloses give the wood a closed cellular structure, which does not allow water to pass. Tyloses are cell ingrowths of living wood parenchyma into the cavities of xylem conducting cells. The white oaks, with tyloses, are used in making wine and whiskey barrels as well as outdoor furniture. Red Oaks do not have the tyloses, thus white oak barrels are used in wine and whiskey production to prevent leaking, which would be the result of using red oaks. It has been used for construction, shipbuilding, cooperage, agricultural implements, and interior finish of houses.[2]

White oak is used extensively in Japanese martial arts for some weapons such as bokken and jo. It is valued for its density, strength, resiliency and relatively low chance of splintering if broken by an impact, relative to the substantially cheaper red oak. Urban legend attributes Japanese White Oak (“Kashi”) as the choice wood but, by law, no white oak is harvested in Japan. Virtually all white oak used in the manufacture of weapons in Japan is imported from North Western United States.

The acorns are much less bitter than the acorns of red oaks. They are small relative to most oaks, but are a valuable wildlife food, notably for turkeys, wood ducks, pheasants, grackles, jays, nuthatches, thrushes, woodpeckers, rabbits, squirrels and deer. They were also used by Native Americans as a food. The white oak is the only known foodplant of Bucculatrix luteella and Bucculatrix ochrisuffusa caterpillars.

The USS Constitution is made from white oak, and reconstructive wood replacement comes from a special grove of Quercus alba known as the "Constitution Grove".

Woodworkers should beware that ferrous metal hardware reacts with oak, causing corrosion and staining the wood. Brass or stainless steel fittings should be used instead.


there are several small wineries and whiskey distilleries here, when i was a kid my grandad would go by them on the way home from a large antique car swap meet they have here and pick up a few barrels, which he cut in half for my grandmother to use for planters in the greenhouse. even with constant dirt/water/heat exposure in such an environment they would last for many years without any leaking or rot.
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, I must concede somewhat.
Species is important but we try to use like kind, like grain whenever possible when we replace stop. When cutting stops its common sense to pay attention on how you cut them. And after cutting for a few years paying attention to how you cut is almost automatic.

So there you go, I'm agreeing with you----sorta.

"Cut 'em and shuv 'em smartly, Steve"
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archw



Joined: 18 Sep 2013
Posts: 3
Location: Andover, NH

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:55 am    Post subject: parting beads: Cutting dados in side jambs Reply with quote

I'm searching for a method of cutting the dados, in situ, on side jambs to accept parting beads if none exist. Situation encountered where full length stained glass replaced orig. sashes and customer wants sash re-installed. Must match functional features of adjacent windows.
Any suggestions most appreciated.
AWeathers
Historic SashWorks, LLC
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