Help on Deglazing Window Project
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Liz



Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:23 am    Post subject: Help on Deglazing Window Project Reply with quote

Hello,
I have just started restoring windows on my 1940's colonial. The windows are double hung, single paned, 8/8. The paint and glazing are in embarrassing shape. I have started by taking my 5 in 1 tool and am scraping out the old to make room for the new.
The lites are in good shape, so I am not going to remove and reinstall those. Can anyone give me any pointers on how to remove the putty? Should I scrape out what is removable and reputty over what is still attached? That goes completely against my grain, but before I start down the wrong road any advise would be helpful. I am leaving the windows in place, but have started to wonder if I should take them out one by one.
In addition, I am self-taught-though I learn very well from my mistakes the older I get the more inclined I am to ask for advise from experts in the field! I asked for window putty at the only shop in town(which didn't appear to have any experts the day I was there), which happens to be Lowe's and they gave me bondo. After watching the window glazing conference tonight with the real expert, I think bondo might not be the correct choice!
I was scraping, washing down with mixture of bleach/h20, sanding, brushing off any extra particles, priming with problem solver, then planning on 2 coats of latex. Guidance would be most appreciated. In addition, I can't seem to find info. on how to remove my windows...though it is late, so perhaps I overlooke it. Thank you for your help!

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Liz
Smith Island Restoration
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2962
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liz:

Kudos on deciding to take care of your old windows out there on Smith Island!

Quote:
...I am self-taught-though I learn very well from my mistakes ...After watching the window glazing conference tonight with the real expert, I think bondo might not be the correct choice!


I'm glad you are willing to learn your lessons. Generally speaking Lowes is not the best place to go for information about products to repair and maintain old houses. They are too likely to say anything to make a sale, even if it is not the best thing for your fine old home. Bondo has dozens of products, but I have not heard of one for glazing wood windows. Exactly which Bondo product did they give you? Even the readily available "DAP 33" glazing compound would be better than anything I know of from Bondo.

See the several glazing and putty topics here in the Windows section of the Forum for more on materials and methods.

For some video of a good method of removing old glazing putty including the special scraper I often recommend see Dave Bower's website:

http://www.oldewindowrestorer.com/steamstripper.html

Quote:
I was scraping, washing down with mixture of bleach/h20, sanding, brushing off any extra particles, priming with problem solver, then planning on 2 coats of latex. Guidance would be most appreciated.


That sounds like a good paint schedule. If using "latex" paint be sure to use 100% acrylic that costs at least $25-40/gallon to assure good quality, and don't paint any window parts that rub together, the "latex" paint never really hardens up like oil-based paint and can gum up the works.

Quote:
In addition, I can't seem to find info. on how to remove my windows.


The "Save Your Wood Windows" report has a section on removing sash:

http://www.historichomeworks.com/hhw/reports/reports.htm#Windows

Take care, work safe and feel free to come back for more help.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
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Liz



Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Bondo information Reply with quote

Hi John,
Thank you so much for your response. I feel very fortunate to have stumbled upon your site last night, while I was googling for information. My instinct told me to not use the bondo-it is home solutions "all-purpose putty".

Bondo has dozens of products, but I have not heard of one for glazing wood windows. Exactly which Bondo product did they give you?

I am off to Lowe's to return it. I viewed your referral on the steamer, and it looks like the perfect item for me-thank you for the reference. Am I understanding correctly that the upper sashes from this 1940's home are not permanently affixed? If I obtain a window zipper, I could loosen the years of stuck paint and have the absolute luxury of actually moving the window up and down? The windows on my 2nd weekender house just lift right out being the older style, but the windows I am working on at my residence are stuck tight as a tick!

Additonally, it looks like to do the job correctly, I should take off the frame of the storm windows and it will allow for quicker and easier access. I can't even begin to thank you enough for your time and help-don't even want to think about the frustrations I would have encountered without the help and advise from this site.

Warmest Regards,

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Liz
Smith Island Restoration
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Am I understanding correctly that the upper sashes from this 1940's home are not permanently affixed?


Some windows are made for both the the upper sash and lower sash to move up and down, which is called "double-hung." Some, called "single-hung" are made for the lower sash to move up and down, but upper sash stays iin place, anthough it can be removed for repairs and maintenance.

Usually single-hung windows have a block or strip of wood filling the outer sash track. The strip is intented to hold the sash up.

Quote:
If I obtain a window zipper, ...


With the combination of a portable steamer, the special scraper and the window zipper and some thoughtful work we are able to remove just about any sash, no matter how tightly painted in it is. For the step-by-step procedure see Save Your Wood Windows:

http://www.historichomeworks.com/hhw/reports/reports.htm#Windows

Take care, work safe and keep in touch.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
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Sherwood Farm4



Joined: 19 Nov 2006
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

If I can insert a question in Liz's thread (my apologies to Liz for butting in) ..... you cautioned her not to paint the sides of her sash with latex paint because it would never really cure and would get sticky. If not paint then what, if anything, do you recommend for the sides? I have two primary sash out now and was planning on priming them with oil California Paint), top coating with California Paint's latex formulation, using interior paint on the sides and inside surface but exterior on the outside. Is this not a good plan?

I am not working on the jamb sides, just finishing up on two sashes that needed some rehabbing, so I went ahead and deglazed, cleaned, etc, before getting them ready to put, tardily, back in service. I am just about to treat them to a Penetrol/turps mixture, followed this weekend by reglazing (Sarco Type M) and then the painting I described above. My main project is a batch of wooden storms windows (hanging type), should I not paint those on the sides, either?

I've been pondering your advice to Liz and wondered if I should be putting (polyurethane?) varnish on the sides, instead, to seal them up from weather and moisture. Presently the jambs have either no paint, or heavy encrustacians of white (likely leaded) exterior paint. I'm leaving that problem for another painting season!

Thanks for your help.

Nancy
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WindowWoman



Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 49
Location: Topsfield, MA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:05 am    Post subject: Side painting Reply with quote

No! Don't paint the sides! It never slides properly once it's painted. I recommend wax - the good bowling alley wax or carnuba car wax. It protects the wood, smells nice, and makes the windows slide beautifully.

Storm windows are a different story. If they are exterior mounted, then by all means paint any surface that is exposed to the elements.

Kudos on doing the work yourself!
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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Hawley MA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indeed, i agree with ww...that being said, moderation is called for here...i just completed a project for a customer who used some sort of bee's wax or carnuba..the wax was slathered on and stuck to everything--including me and my truck's steering wheel!

i often use a 50/50 mixture of penetrol/turpentine...the first coat gets wicked up quickly...apply a second or third coat until the wood is fairly saturated then wipe off the excess...this works too....

...jade
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject: Sash Painting & Glazing Prodedure Reply with quote

The side edges of the sash in hung windows need to be left bare so air infiltrating past the edge can keep the wood joints of the sash dry and free from decay. The only treatment I might apply is to rub on parafin wax, but even that is better applied in the sash track of the window frame jamb.

The following is an exerpt from my new book, Save America's Windows, coming out next March.

Here is my "standard" sash glazing and painting procedure for normally sized residential windows, This assumes the entire sash is bare wood. I sometimes depart from this but it does cover the basics. We paint and glaze sash in a vertical position (not flat on a bench), so keep that in mind with expressions like top & bottom, upper & lower.


Glazing and Painting Procedure

9a. Treat. Apply paintable water-repellant to bare wood (if waxy paraffin type (ThompsonÝs WaterSeal, or similar) apply to all surfaces of sash except side edges, if sticky oil or resin type keep off sash edges and face margins (the narrow strip where the face of the sash rubs on the parting bead or the stops)

9b. Prime. Prime all surfaces of the entire sash with oil-based alkyd resin primer, except side edges and face margins. This rule-of-thumb can be modified within following guidelines:
´ No priming or painting of the top edge of the upper sash because it usually doesn't need protection from moisture when the sash are single-hung or if double hung and the top sash is not operated
´ The top edge of the upper sash does need paint protection from the weather if it is a casement window
´ The bottom edge of the lower sash may need painting, especially if it had deteriorated due to moisture on the sill.
Allow primer to dry thoroughly.

9c. Glaze. Apply glazing putty to glazing rabbets as bedding. Install glass and be sure bottom edge of glass is actually resting on the neck of the lower glazing rabbet. Install glazing points. Apply and tool glazing putty to form bevel to form water-tight seal. Tool putty off of interior joints to form water-tight seal at joint between the glass and the wood. Set sash aside in correct vertical position to avoid settling of glass and distortion of beveled putty. Allow putty to cure for several days or a few weeks if possible.

9d. Paint. Apply primer to putty bevels and interior seals, allow to dry. Apply two top coats of paint to entire sash except side edges and face margins and top and bottom edges if they are not being painted. (Use best quality exterior house paint. Waterborne 100% acrylic paint is good, as is oil-based alkyd resin paint and traditional linseed-oil-based paint.) Allow paint to dry thoroughly.

9e. Lubricate. Rub paraffin wax (candle stub) or brush on paraffin oil to jamb sash tracks. If side edges and face margins are subject to extreme weathering they may get this treatment.

copyright 2006 John C. Leeke

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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
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Location: Hawley MA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

we all employ different methods and use different products...

though i am researching 'greener' products (one can be fooled by terms like 'soy' and 'enviromentally safe') i continue to use a 50/50 mix of penetrol/turpentine on the ENTIRE sash--every square inch--and make sure that all end grain and joints are saturated and wicked (don't leave an apparent build up of dried mixture on the surface). i find that applying the primer after the putty is tooled in place offers one contiguous coat of primer over all components...you can get the same effect if you prime the entire sash before AND after tooling the skinned over putty.

i use penetrol/turps on all surfaces that are not painted--the jambs (if that is part of the project), the top of the top sash and the stile sides...i use this method because the product is absorbed into the wood not sitting on the surface to collect dust over the years which may inhibit proper operation.

if a sash is in an especially 'challenged' condition and requires disassembly, i will apply a thinned mixture of epoxy consolidant (i use abatron liquidwood) to the END GRAIN of all joints before reassembly--dipping the joint to an inch or so... this assures consolidation of the wood fibers and a separately functioning joint...if the joints are consolidated while assembled, they may not be allowed to function idependently...this process eliminates the need for the 50/50 mixture of penetrol/turps at the end grain....


i DO paint the entire interior face of the sash--even the portion that rides on the parting bead or sash stop... why? I'm glad you asked--because it is VERY tedious to get a perfect line that stops exactly at the bead/stop line and because if i have stripped the whole sash down, i only have three thin coats of primer/paint finish which is not thick enough to cause a problem...the problem arises when there is paint build up in that area. if the face is left partially unpainted and it is not perfectly applied, one will see the dark color of the unpainted wood when viewing the window...if one paints over the line a bit so that the dark color is not an issue, the point becomes moot because now you have paint where you originally had not planned for it to be....now, if you are totally confused read over and over again til it makes sense, or use the technique with which you feel most comfortable.....

...jade
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:05 am    Post subject: Sealing End-Grain Reply with quote

I began sealing end-grain of exterior woodwork and window parts with epoxy and other materials back in the early 1970s. Through the 1980s & 90s we did a lot of end-grain sealing and still do it in some cases now. I have revisited many of those earlier works and treatments through my famous Side-by-Side Comparitive Field Tests program (sounds fancy, but really it's just trying out different things, taking good work notes and going back to check up on performance. After a few decades of this you really begin to understand what works and what doesn't.)

I'm learning that, like most things in life, sealing end-grain can be good and can be bad. It can be bad when it traps moisture in the wood. It can be good when it keeps moisture out of the wood. So, I think about the moisture situation that the wood is in, and seal the end-grain when it makes sense to do so.

One of the important tenants of effective window work is to give each window individual consideration and treatment. When I encounter a century-old sash with all sound wood, I probably will not seal its end-grain since it has survived well for a century without it. But, let's say on the other side of the house, there is a sash with one rotten lower joint, and it's rotten because there is no gutter above, and there will never be a gutter above, then I will repair the rotten joint and, if there are signs of excessive moisture buildup on the other joint like paint peeling to bare wood, then I may seal the end-grain of the other joint as a preventive treatment.

In life there is little that is "black & white," and so too with sealing end-grain. It is possible to leave end-grain completely open and to completely seal it so absolutely no moisture will get in or out. It is also possible to only partially seal the end-grain, so SOME moisture can get in and out.

End-grain sealing is the method. But, the nuances of how and when the method is applied is what results in effective long-term performance.

Just last week I sealed some end-grain, so we'll see how that goes.

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John

by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought


Last edited by johnleeke on Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sherwood Farm4



Joined: 19 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really looking forward to John's book!

And I truly appreciate the conversation between Jade and John about their individual approaches to rehabbing windows. When an amateur like me starts out, it is so difficult to tease out the best practices from the mountain of info available. And I quite agree that different windows often require different approaches, but what is really, really, useful is hearing about why the different techniques are chosen by experienced practioners. That information truly informs and allows new workers to begin to look at their projects in a more wholistic, less formulaic way. Thank you both for posting not only your recommendations, but also your reasoning.

I am behindhand (again) on my window project due to the weather (first too wonderful to stay out of the garden, but then so abruptly stormy I had to deal with that, first) but I'll be able to put all your suggestions into practice this weekend.

Thanks to both of you for your help!
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
what is really, really, useful is hearing about why the different techniques are chosen by experienced practioners.


The differences between Jade's practice and mine are really quite minor. Here we are sorting out the subtilties as we push to improve the performance of our work.

Quote:

That information truly informs and allows new workers to begin to look at their projects in a more wholistic, less formulaic way. Thank you both for posting not only your recommendations, but also your reasoning.


You're welcome! That is the whole purpose of this discussion forum.

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