Weatherstripping.
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the main characteristics of fin & pile is that it is very low friction when used on the sides of the sash. This might be important when doing windows that will be used by older folks. Also, it prevents air infiltration better than spring bronze, unless you're setting your spring bronze in a bead of sealant.

The main characteristic of spring bronze is that it is long-lasting. It definitely would hold up to a little accidental paint, and paint could even be removed from it. Spring bronze is more sustainable that any of the plastics because it is easily recycled. Also, spring bronze could be made from basic sheet metal materials, where all the plastics are factory-only products.

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Skuce



Joined: 08 Nov 2009
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Location: Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget the "Shiney-is-cool" factor of spring bronze as well.
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fin and Pile kerfed into the sides of the sash interests us, but we're leary about the kerf on either side of the plowed area where the sash cord or chain is. Not much room there and seems it could pose a problem from weakening this area.

Steve S
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's right, it often cannot be used on sash that are plowed and 1 3/8" or less in thickness. On larger 1 3/4" thick sash there is usually room for the kerf, and sometimes two kerfs for double stripping.
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have a restorer that has landed in our area touting the use of T slot pile weather stripping (as used on vinyl windows). He uses it on either side of the parting stop and on the inside edges of the outside and interior stop. He's telling people he's used this for some 50 years or so. But his installer says they had to have a custom router bit made to be able to use it.

I saw one of his applications last week and although I like the concept, it sure looks like a weak application. The T slot sure doesn't leave much meat on the surface of the wood your plowing for it.

He also is using it on the bottom and top of the rails and on the meeting rails.

Would appreciate any comments.
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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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Location: Fort Kent, ME

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its a good idea, but my initial reaction (before i even got to the end of your post) was the same... it would seem there just wouldnt be enough "meat" left next to the routed slot needed for the strip to be installed.... and im skeptical as far as long-term durability of the mod.

Not sure how it could be done otherwise, but if that problem was properly addressed I think it would make for a great upgrade to any double hung sash.....
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I question any outfit that says it has THE Ultimate weatherstripping system and that's the only one they use. I'm not saying that approach is wrong or bad, I just ask the question, "Can one weatherstripping system do everything for every window in every case?" The answer is usually, "no."

In my experience I use two or three types of weatherstripping frequently, and another six or eight occasionally.

For example, on one project for an old-folks home the sash had to operate VERY EASILY, because the older folks have little strength in the their hands and arms and frequent coordination limitations. Spring bronze and metal ridge was out because it created too much friction and was too costly. On most windows we used fin & pile attached to the sash sides. Just think about it, the only thing touching the track is the fin, and it's only about .009" thick. As the sash is used the fin wears a little tiny slot into the track, reducing the friction even further and slightly improving resistance to air infiltration. At the meeting rails we couldn't use the fin & pile because it created a "click and detent" action that made it difficult for the old folks to get the sash started moving, so we used a plastic V-seal that had very low friction and still made a good seal, plus its low cost helped us meet the limited budget available.

On some windows in the section of the building where the oldest folks lived we used no weatherstripping at all to keep friction to an absolute minimum. There we added weatherstripping to the room doors and re-tuned the building's ventilation system to operate at a neutral air-pressure in those rooms rather than negative air-pressure. This controlled and limited air infiltration at the windows. Then we educated the managers and occupants in moving the sitting and resting furniture away from the windows in the winter, and close to the windows in the summer to provide comfort for the occupants. One of the managers said that would be a headache and cost to move all that furniture twice a year, so we talked to the physical therapist and activities director who set up a program for the old folks and their assistants to move the furniture themselves as part of their routine physical exercise activities.

The report three years later is energy saved and plenty of comfortable old folks.

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Luma



Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Weatherstripping Reply with quote

My windows have what seem to be zinc metal kerf liners installed along the jambs (to the height of the sash only)and across the bottom and top of the frames. They overlap where they meet in the bottom right and left corners of the frame. This made it tough to remove the sashes. The liners however remain in good condition and I want to put it all back together the way I found it. The difficulty is in getting the liners in along with the sash since there is a groove along the parting bead in which they are inserted. I am not sure how to approach this re-installation procedure. I am thinking of Inserting the sash, propping it up while I carefully bend the metal liner to fit between the sash and the jamb, then straightening it and setting it into the grove. I am not sure this will work. My question is should I attempt this? Would my windows be compromised without the liners? Is it easier to replace the liners with spring bronze liners?
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our thinking and practice of weather stripping is evolving. Just this summer we've switched to the spring bronze weather stripping on the sides of both bottom and top sashes. although there is some tolerance issues using it on the top sash around the pulley, that we haven't quite overcome yet.
Anyway my point is that if a window we are restoring already has kerfed type zinc we normally will replace the original zinc with new. Its readily available and relatively inexpenseive and heck, the kerf is alreay there. We do consolidate all existing and new kerfs with Abatron liquid epoxy. It gives some additional strength where it is needed. We do not however try to save the old kerf to reuse. Just too much trouble. I use a sacrificial putty knife to locate the nails used to secure the zinc and then use the same putty knife and a hammer to slice through said nails. the sash will come right out (with the zinc). Take care when slicing, dicing or chopping around the pulley of the top sash, since your putty knife and a good whack will damage it much, if you mistake it for a nail.
Accurate Metal is the place to buy your new zinc. Tell them Schoberg Restorations referred you to them.

We do not reuse existing interlocking metal weather stripping at the meeting rails, bottom of bottom rail and top of the top rail. Vynil bulb, is tough to beat, for cost and affectiveness.

Hops this helps
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Luma



Joined: 03 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sschoberg wrote:

Anyway my point is that if a window we are restoring already has kerfed type zinc we normally will replace the original zinc with new. Its readily available and relatively inexpenseive and heck, the kerf is alreay there.


Just to clarify...

The main problem I am worried about is that my current zinc weather stripping is sunk into a very thin kerf on the parting bead and I seriously doubt I will be able to get the old one back in to this groove. Even the edge of a new one will probably get slightly bent during the installation and not fit into this existing parting bead kerf. Is it common for weather stripping to be inserted like this? It is very difficult to remove the top sash (from the inside) with this configuration! Since the parting bead has the weather stripping sunk into it, I cannot simply remove the parting bead to remove the upper sash... the weather stripping holds it in! What a PITA!

It would be much easier to simply insert a narrower piece that stops at the parting bead (new or I can cut the original) and maybe caulk the edge if nails alone will not seal it sufficiently. I am assuming you put the weather stripping into the kerfs on each side of a sash then just insert it back into the frame and nail it? Wouold be much easier than trying to sink it back into the parting bead.

Thanks for the reply :)
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, I've run accros this exact type of kerfed zinc. Just another reason to not try and save. As a matter of fact, you may not be able to save the parting stop. but its not hard to make or expensive to have it made. If you take out the parting stop in pieces, just use one of the better pieces as a guide to cut new one on your table saw, or take one of the better pieces to your local lumber yard and ask them to make an exact duplicate in the lengths you need. Explain where it goes and ask them to make it exactly the same dimensions as your sample!!

Your new zinc will fit between the outside stop and the parting stop as you said you'd like it to. If your sashes are 1 3/8" thick you'll need 002ch for the top sash(to fit between outside and parting stops) and 004ch for your bottom sash (a little wider so inside stop covers edge). For 1 3/4" thick sashes zinc for the top sash will need to be 003ch and the bottom sash will need 005ch. The sizes of zinc mentioned are from Accurate Metals.

Sounds rather simple--right? And it is! Definetly not rocket science.

Hope this info helps ya
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was talking with Dick yesterday about his T-slot weather stripping he uses on his window restorations. I need to give him his due. He's using a custom T-slot router bit which plows lower than I realized. According to his techs the ultimate depth is about 1/2", but they can go as shallow as 3/16". Per Dick they found the need to plow deeper the hard way. Shallow plows will tear out easily. But he is having great success with the deeper plows, he said. According to him you can get various lengths of pile to accomadate for the deeper plow.

as John said earlier, there isn't just one type of weather stripping thats correct for all applications.
T-slot weather stripping may have advantages in some applications.

there you go Dick, I'm giving you your due.
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy Stop is a kit of weatherstripping that includes parting beads with fin & pile built into it. It is made by Advanced Repair Technology:


http://www.advancedrepair.com/weather_stripping/easy_stop.htm

Get a kit for one window and test it out-- "Easy"Stop can become "Hard"Stop very easily.

Easy Stop comes in one color--white (the last time I ordered it). It's possible to 'stain' or "dye" it, but it's a painstaking process.

The strips may need to be beveled or planed down get a good press-fit in existing grooves. This can be done by hand with a sharp plane, holding the strips on a "sticking board."

Once in, it works well. As with all weathering stripping that has pile, I put a permanent sticker in the sash track that says and shows: do not get paint on the fuzzy pile.

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