Putty Analysis
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:28 pm    Post subject: Putty Analysis Reply with quote

Jade writes:

Quote:
Hey John......

Picked up 30 windows from the Touro Synagogue yesterday......I am having a tough time with the Old Time putty....After 3 weeks with many hours of fan blowing, the putty is finally ready for priming on my current job.. I don't have that kind of time for the Touro project. Do you have any feedback on the different types of putty we used at the workshop? I tried the AquaGlaze and DONOT like it. Very difficult to work with.....

Hope all is well.....Jade


Yes, I've used a couple of the puttys we rounded up, and set up a little sample board experiment:



Here you see a couple lines each of:

Perm-E-Lastic, supplied by McMaster-Kerr, sent by Steve Swiat

Perma-Glaze, repackaged and supplied to me by Duffy Hoffman, manufacturer unknown

Aqua-Glaze, manufactuered by SCL ("SCL" was on the can, but it may now be manufactured by SavoGran?), brought to the workshop and demonstrated by Richard

You can see I laid these lines on July 1st. They have been sitting on my bench in room temperature (60F to 80F), no fans since then. After two hours the Aqua-Glaze had skined over enough to paint. After two days the Perma-Glaze had skinned over enough to easily paint. It's been 13 days and the Perm-E-Lastic has just barely skinned over, still not skined over enough to easily paint since it is still quite soft underneath as well.

After 13 days I push the end of each line over with my finger. The Perm-E-Lastic is still quite elastic, not much skin has formed at the surface. The Perma-Glaze is solid at the surface and quite firm within, and breaks off in soft chunks. The Aqua-Glaze is hard at the surface and only somewhat elastic within if pressed slowly, and will break off in chunks if pressed over faster. The Aqua-Glaze has developed a few shrinkage cracks across the lines (toward the far end of the lines, not showing clearly in the photo).



On July 1st I glazed a two-light sash.

On the left is Perm-E_Lastic. It was rather difficult to work with, sticking to my hands a lot and even to my clean putty knife. I had to dip my putty knife in mineral spirits to do the final smoothing of the lines of putty. Glazing in this light took about three times longer than my standard. After 13 days there is not enough skin to paint easily and the putty is still so elastic within that it is not paintable.

On the right is Perma-Glaze. This putty was a joy to work with--worked somewhat better than our long-time standard of Old Time Putty. It did not stick much to my hand, it tooled in nicely and quickly--no lubricant on my putty knife was necessary. Glazing time was a minute shorter than my standard time. Enough skin had developed in just one day to make painting possible, after two days there was a solid skin to make painting easy.

I did not try glazing with Aqua-Glaze, I knew it would be much more difficult to work with, just based on making the sample lines above. It could be possible to develop techniques to work with this putty, but I will not bother at this time.

I am selecting Perma-Glaze as a replacement for Old-Time Putty as it seems to be of the same oil-and-calcium carbonate type (although Duffy has not provided any information on its make up). I am thinking of Perm-E-Lastic as the type of putty that has some non-drying (non-oxidizing) oils similar to DAP 33. This initial sampling does not speak at all to the issue of performance during service life. Do not take this report on my experience as an endorsement of any particular product.

I have not had the time to get sample kits out to any of you as indicated earlier--I will later on.

Please keep us all posted on your putty experiences by leaving messages here.

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John

by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought


Last edited by johnleeke on Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 785
Location: Hawley MA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, John....That's great news. I will be contacting Duffy to purchase the product and see if he can shed some light on the onsite endurance of this product.

Question, didn't Steve send a product similar to the one Duffy sent? If so, do you think they are the same product?

I'll keep the forum posted on my putty experience...

....Jade
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DBowers



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Weare, NH

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:14 pm    Post subject: Aqua Glaze Experience Reply with quote

I have done more than 30 sash using Aqua Glaze. It has a sticky quality to it when first taken out of the can. I mix the contents a bit before trying to use a new can. I take a couple golf ball size scoops and work in my hand for about 30 seconds. It does stick to your hand at first but if you can get by that it becomes smooth and much less sticky. Secret: Don't get both hands in it. Although there is a learning curve I have found it satifactory to work with. The real plus is it's ready to paint the next day. I glaze on an easel and have developed a technique that allows me to glaze a large 6 light sash in 20 minutes ( does not include time to bed the glass). If it appears to be dragging or pulling, just dip your outty knife in clean water.

There is frequently a fine line of glazing left on the glass. I do not touch this until I clean the glass before painting. This is easily removed when cleaning. One other observation is that shelf life is 30-60 days once a can is opened.

Dave
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Question, didn't Steve send a product similar to the one Duffy sent? If so, do you think they are the same product?



Steve sent the Perm-E-Lastic, which is definitely a different product than Perma-Glaze, as shown in the photos above--noticeably different color, different working consistency, different curing rate, skinning charisteristics, and cured hardness. Please keep in mind that I am not saying there is anything wrong with Per-E-Lastic. Here I am just examining these putties differing characteristics to understand them and determine where and when each might best be used, and to stimulate discussion.

I plan to make up a few more test boards, that are half primed so I can determine how each putty binds to the wood, unprimed and primed with different materials, etc. Then I'll have test boards at future workshops and training sessions so everyone can poke and prod for themselves.

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sswiat



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 231
Location: Cambria, New York

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:25 am    Post subject: Perm-E-lastic Reply with quote

I did have the opportunity to use the Atlas putty on 8 sash recently.

Here are my observations:

Workability
1) It was sticky to the hands so expect to have messy hands.
2) Sticks to the knife and pulls away if worked to fast after application. I found that if I let it "marry" the wood for a good long time (10-15+ minutes I had a good bond). I would start one sash applying the putty and work may way through a few others before taking the knife to it. I had good results that way and was able to get a smooth tight application. I also could add back if I pulled to much away with no problems.


Skinning over

On the days worked we had temperatures in the high 80's to low 90's. The shop was hot and I doubt it ever went below 80 at night.
The putty appeared to have developed a skin over it as evidenced by the sheen and no longer sticking to your fingers. It was still pliable underneath and care had to be taken. I would definitely say it was less pliable than DAP 33. If your fingers hit it, it would dent but not to the degree experienced using DAP 33. The skinning was noticed after 48 hours. I had a fan on it for a few hours while I was working in the shop.

Painting:

I did apply paint at approximately 72 hours post application. An oil primer was used and it took it well with no problems noticed. The oil paint was thinned slightly with mineral spirits to smooth application. I imagine it would be possible to break the skin with a thicker paint or a paint that was setting up to quickly. I did thin because of the hot temperatures an wanted to reduce brush drag.

After 24 hours, 2 coats of exterior Ben Moore acrylic latex was applied. It took the paint well but it was noticeable that under the painted skin, that the putty was quite soft. It was soft enough that if you happend to deform it when moving, you could smooth it out easily wit a light finger touch. Carefully done, the paint skin would not break.

After another 24 hours approximately 4 more coats of Sherwin Williams acrylic latex paint was applied with the appropriate recoat time plus between coats. (this was because the client had the house painted different colors w/o my knowledge so the windows where green and no longer white. Then they gave me the wrong green to repaint the sash. At the end of the ordeal , the windows had 1 coat of primer and 5-6 coats of latex.).

When applying topcoats 3 through 6, the paint adhered but the putty underneath the paint and the initial skin was still noticeably pliable.

Follow-up:

I fortunately will have the opportunity to reinspect the sash approximately 3 weeks post initial glazing so I can see if there is any immediate issues.


Conclusion:

I am in the middle on this product. I would probably rate it over any of the water based glazing used to date and above DAP. I have no experience with Perm-a-glaze. I guess no one can claim that the name is misleading. Perm-E-lastic appears to stay "permanently" elastic!

Questions for John:

Based on your putty board sample, is quick drying to the point it will break off in chunks good? Isn't such dryness going to cause premature failure since it will lose it's ability to flex with the woods seasonal and moisture absorption changes?

Is there a benefit to being soft underneath for as long as possible as the oil is trapped and will slowly dryout and remain flexible? If it skins over just enought to apply an oil based primer, won't the paint coat also act as a barrier to dryout of the oils?

With the Perm-a-glaze, what do you beleive gives it such a dark color? Is it possible that some additive is used to speed the drying? I know when doing wood finishing, additives are often used, to speed or slow drying depending on weather and temperature conditions. Such solvents/thinners like naptha evaporate much faster than mineral spirits and can be added to oil paint to speed drying. There is also japan driers which is used to speed the drying/curing time of linseed oil finishes.

Which leads to the next question, japan driers are commonly used on oil based finishes with good results. What would be the affect of adding a japan drier to oil based putty other than causing it to dry more quickly?
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SSwiat reports:

My last post discusses the trial of Perm-Elastic glazing putty.

I did have the opportunity to inspect the sash that were glazed with Perm-Elastic 45 days post painting.

The inspection revealed that the Perm-Elastic had hardened and was no longer pliable under the paint. The paint also appeared to have adhered well with no signs of shrinkage.
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L.Shaw
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:28 pm    Post subject: AquaGlaze Reply with quote

Hi...I do a little window restoration work in Newport, RI. I've tried AquaGlaze and really love using it. Problem is...I can't find it anywhere. A problem with supplying it I'm told. Anyone have info. about that? Would appreciate a response to lauriceshaw@msn.com if that's appropriate.

Many thanks
L.
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject: Adhesion of Putty to Wood Reply with quote

Jade writes in another discussion:

Quote:
If time or money was no object and a window sash was in solid condition would you (1) prime (2) apply alkyd resin (3) apply a mixture of boiled linseed oil and turpentine or (4) apply nothing to the glazing rabbets prior to installing the glass with an oil based putty? Please explain why you have made your choice.....


My standard treatment for bare wood in glazing rabbets is to apply an alkyd resin primer or alkyd resin pre-treatment and let it dry before glazing to keep the bare wood from drawing the binding oil out of the putty.

I do not use the traditional linseed oil and terps because it takes longer to dry and can promote the growth of mold and mildew--precursers to fungal decay.

To demonstrate this I have made my latest putty sample board (see the attached photo below).

Here I have prepared the bare wood board in the upper third with alkyd-resin oil-based primer (white), the middle third with boiled linseed oil (no terps), the lower third has no treatment. Three days later the primer has dried throughly and the linseed oil surface is still slippery and not dry, though much of it has soaked into the wood.

I have applied two lines each of (left to right) DAP 33, Perma-Glaze(not applied since my small supply had hardened in the can), Perm-E-Lastic, Aqua Glaze, and Glazol. Six weeks later I'm testing the adhesion of the putty to the board by pressing sideways all along each line of putty with moderate finger pressure. Results:

DAP 33: not well adheared to the bare wood, well adheared to the oiled wood, one loose section on the primed wood.

Perm-E-Lastic: not well adheared to the bare wood, somewhat loose on the oiled wood, well adheared on the primed wood.

Aqua Glaze: Tt did not budge at all from the three surfaces with the same moderate sideways finger pressure. Unlike the other putties, it was solidified into a solid inflexible mass, which may be contributing to it's resistance to sideways pressure. I do not consider this a good test of its adhesion. (by the way, it failed again by shrinkage cracks as in the previous test described in a previous message)

Glazol: not well adheared on bare wood, only partly adheared on the oiled wood, well adheared on the primed wood.

I'll let your draw your own conclusion. Please leave a message on how you interpret this test sample.

In my next testing I will add a section for the alkyd resin oil pre-treatment.



05-12-07- 001 copy.JPG
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Leeke's putty sample board. See the message for a description.
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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
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Location: Hawley MA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting......

Yes, the PermaGlaze does harden in the can once it is opened. What I do to correct this problem is wrap wax paper around a piece of cardboard that fits in snugly on top of the glazing. This eliminates contamination from the airspace and I find it works quite well. My original container has a whole gallon of dried putty sitting unuseable at the bottom....

My thoughts.....in most cases, the majority of the glazing rabbet is covered with a bedding of putty, then the glass, which in turn is secured by glazing points so, in my opinion the 'adherence factor' is not an issue. Some people don't even use a bed but install the glass right on the wood. I use a putty bed as a gasket against the weather and as a cushion for safely seating the glass. The putty that is applied over the glass sticks to the glass that is smooth and nonpourous (how many times have you pulled out a piece of glass and found that the glazing is stuck like glue to it??) My concern is not so much about adherence as it is about conditioning the wood with oil so that it will not (over a short period of time) wick the oils out of the putty. I always use an oilbased primer so that the glazing putty is sandwiched between oil based products...

Another thought is that once the primer and two coats of finish paint dry and cure they are helping to adhere the putty to the wood and the glass.....

One of the reasons I asked this question is because I am using Sherwin Williams A-100 primer which can take up to three days to dry sufficiently enough to paint over. What that presents is upwards of 6 days for the primer to dry on the rabbet prior to AND after glazing....If Penetrol offers what I want in maintaining the oil in both the wood and the putty, it seems that that would be the way to go.....

What do you think about that???
...Jade
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kristina
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:06 pm    Post subject: window glazing putty Reply with quote

I have read the posts on the historic homeworks forum about glazing putty. As a european, I was happy in 2003 to finally find the Sterling-Clark old time linseed putty, as this is similar to the products I was used to. But as you know, they were bought out and stopped production. Does anyone have any experience with Crawford Painters putty? I have now used it on some windows, but I would be much more comfortable using it if there is a general agreement that it will hold up well. We are restoring the windows of our 1795 Federal style house Maryland. It involves stripping all the paint, making some carpentry repair to the frames, replacing some panes and new putty all around. After that, finding new window weights and we will have again our double hang windows moving.

I will include the website of Crawford putty.

http://crawfords.com/c/htmlos/003.1.925693256218708185/Painters_Putty
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



I put Crawford's Painter's Putty in the same classification as Old-Time Putty: traditional linseed oil and whiting putty. It shoud be noted that the manufacturer does not promote it as a glazing putty. Duffy Hoffman, long-time painter and window specialist in Pennsylivania has extolled the virtues of Crawford's as a window glazing putty and demonstrates its use in his training workshops, but I don't have anything in my notes on its service life performance.

It's interesting to note that a year or two ago Duffy shifted from Crawford's to PermaGlaze.

Quote:

It involves stripping all the paint,


Be sure to notice Steam Paint Removal:

http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=133

We have had great success using it on windows.

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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kristina....

I have 2 unopened gallons of Old Time Putty that I purchased about a year ago. If you are willing to pay for shipment, you can have them.....I now use PermaGlaze. I like it's consistency, workability and, under the best conditions, it is ready to prime in 48 hours. I typically allow 4-5 days and have a fan blowing on the glazed sash for a few hours a day....

In speaking with Duffy, he said if the PermaGlaze was not available for some reason he would use the Crawford's putty. It's available through some Sherwin-Williams Paint dealers....

...Jade
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GA



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Wondering Reply with quote

I'm restoring the original beautiful 9 over 1 windows on a 1925 craftsman and am happy to find this forum.

My main emphasis is to make sure the material I use to reglaze the windows will last many years. The next important thing is I have to be able to use the material. After reading all the posts I could find on this forum about glazing, a few questions remain:

1. What are the thoughts on using Dap 33 Glazing. I dont see any comments on it.

2. I've attempted to use the Dap Latex Glazing in a caulk type cartridge, because it seems like latex would be most flexible and durable. However, I cannot control the soupy consistency and decided I really need a knife grade material. I found this site searching for a latex knife grade material. However, I see that many prefer the oil based materials. What is the reasoning for this? What are the thoughts on latex based materials?

3. Several years ago I tried a knife grade latex compound made by Elmers, called Tuff Glaze. It was a bit more difficult to work than Dap 33, but not as difficult as the soupy stuff in the cartridge. It seems to have held up well, but is no longer available. Any information on this stuff - ie availability and is it any good?

Thanks!
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GA:

DAP 33 is the ubiquitous common denominator of glazing compounds. It is available everywere, used by many because it is all they can get. Look for Crawfords, and perhaps find it a Sherwin Williams Paints.

In fact, I should be sure to include DAP 33 in my next comparitive testing, just because it is so common and everyone knows what it is like (not too likeable, but better than no putty at all.)

Bob Yapp throws his beat up can of DAP 33 across the room, to demonstrate what it thinks of DAP 33, it slams against the concrete blocks. The can is almost as round as a soft ball.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi GA.....
In addition to the positive comments made about PermaGlaze, one of the significant advantages to using the product is its drying time. The manufacturer claims that it should skin over sufficently to be painted in 48 hours. Indeed it does. I typically have a fan blowing on the puttied sash to enhance oxidation, hencethe drying time. I find it beneficial to use a fast drying oil primer such as Benjamin Moore Fresh Start Fast Dry.

The product is currently manufactured by Schnee-Morehead but they purchased the product from the original manufacturer, Biddle, who had been making it for some time. Because it is only available in 5 gallon containers, you will most likely never see it at your local hardware store. It is a product used mostly by higher end sash makers and window restoration specialists.

Dap33 has been widely used for many years and enjoys a good reputation. Drying time is 10 days or more. As for the latex putty, I personally do not like them. I reintroduce oil (boiled linseed, soy, Penetrol) to the wood to replace the oils lost over the years. Applying an oil based putty followed by an oil based primer makes the most sense to me.

Hope this helps.....
...Jade
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