Putty Analysis
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have a bit of a problem with the term "testing" when referring to my non primed putty. I don't think my customers would appreciate the term either.


Ok, I've edited the message above to eliminate "testing." Sorry.

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sschoberg



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need for the sorry---John you're a "Purist Preservationist" and I say that with the most utmost respect. I've learned so much here and have been motivated so much I consider it an honor to read it and even provide some input---but thanks for the change in wording.

Steve "Grasshopper" Schoberg
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No need for the sorry---John you're a "Purist Preservationist" and I say that with the most utmost respect. I've learned so much here and have been motivated so much I consider it an honor to read it and even provide some input---but thanks for the change in wording.

Steve "Grasshopper" Schoberg


Oh no! Whatever you do, don't call me "Purist Preservationist." I am not a purist, after all, my middle name is Practical. Yep, John Practical Leeke. And, I've heard that they now have a good inoculation against "preservationist."

Now, Grasshopper, walk along the freshly painted putty and make no wrinkles.

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robselina



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the feedback. I really would like to do this once and forget about it for 10-20 years. I'm pretty sure the glazing that is failing on my upper sashes was installed in early 1960. I'd consider myself very lucky if my putty job looks that good after 50 years!

I want to do this 'right'. However, sometimes it is hard to sort out what is right when everyone has had their own experiences.....

Looks like I need to spend some more time researching pre-treatments next, I sense some consensus on that issue! ;)
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it is hard to sort out what is right when everyone has had their own experiences.....


That's because there is no single right or wrong way. One way that works for one person may not work for another, since the skills in the hand are at least half the success; in one part of the country something may work, but not somewhere else, since the weather is different everywhere. I see lot of this since I'm in touch with window specialists all around the country. (and a few in Europe, one in Africa and two in New Zeland!)

The paint and putty methods and materials I present here:
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2466#2466
are the common denominator of what seems to work throughout the continental United States. There are subtle or not so subtle personal and regional variations that can work better.

We all are getting 10 to 20 year service life on our work. The discussion above is teasing out the very subtle details to bump that service life up a few years, or to reduce costs a bit without lowering the service life.

If you want to re-create the 50 year life of your current putty, I would take a very close look at that putty, how it has failed, if some has not failed, why, etc. And I mean a close look. Use a magnifying glass, or one of those cheap pocket microscopes. Cut into some of the putty that is still good. Is there primer underneath it? Scratch into the wood of the glazing dadoes, any sign of an oil pre-treatment, was it primed? Make a fresh break in a piece of the putty and see the cross section of the layers of paint. How many coats in the first application? How many times has it been painted since? It could be that its long life is due to regular paint maintenance every ten years, rather that what putty was used or whether the glazing dadoes were primed.

In any case, just pick a method, and some materials and do a window. See how you feel about it. Then go with your feelings. Your subconscious mind probably already knows enough to get started, and it will definitely know a lot more after you have done a few windows. So, be sure to start out back! By the time you get around front you'll be doing just fine.

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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, you have a way of describing and articulating what many of us know but are too tightly wrapped to put into words ourselves (ha!)

I had a client ask how long my restored windows will "last" before needing to be reglazed? I'll tell ya, thats one hard question to answer!

5, 10, 20, 30, 60 years? all or none of the above?

My answer went something like this:
A well-done window glazing job (using the time tested techniques and non-latex style glazing putty) should be *expected* to last up to 20 years (or more?) with minimal upkeep... but could last 50+ years *if* the top coat of paint is very well maintained and if the glazing is re-oiled every decade or so. (read: zero neglect!)

Ive done windows that i knew were 100+ years old and while the majority of putty was newer, some areas were clearly the original putty (amazing as it seemed, i doubted my own eyes, but it was true). As I said, do a good job prepping and priming (and other pre-glazing steps) take care of the paint on top and the putty underneith and you shouldnt have failure problems to worry about.
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sschoberg



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have trouble guessing when asked a question of how long will this or that last.

but coming accross as a professional is perceivably difficult if you say I don't know how long my work will last.

Sir or ma'am you wood windows are in a maintenance cycle, even after they've been restored. The've last all these years because there has been periodic maintenance performed. The time between periodic maintenance such as putty cleaning and repair, painting does depend on the quality of the product I use and the procedure I perform in performing these procedures.
I use the products and procedures I think is best for your windows, your neighbors windows, and the family's windows accross town.
Although my warranty covers my workmanship for a year, I feel your next maintennce shouln't be needed for a long while. When you notice that there needs to be some maintenance performed on your windows, please call me and I will assess and price the needed maintenance per window. This periodic maintenance is important to keep your windows operating and performing properly.

Our conversation goes something like that.

Steve S
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have trouble guessing when asked a question of how long will this or that last.


It will last as long as someone is willing to take care of it, plus one or two decades.

That's why maintenance recommendations go along with every piece of work that I do.

A lot of my work in the past has been done under a one-year warranty. I always returned just before the year was up to check out the work and do any minor (or major) touch ups. If a sash joint was cracked open, a rub of putty and lick of paint would seal it up and prevent that joint from being the one that is rotten in ten years.

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sschoberg



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We do a 6 month check and again at 1 year. As part of our project completion paper work (closeout) we schedule our 6 month and 1 year inspection visits, with a 1 week prior reminder notice. Oh, the marvels of computors in business!

Steve S
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sschoberg



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are more than a few sales traps that new companies have trouble staying away from. Over selling is probably the single most trouble maker for a beginning company and even for some older companies.

Its important to realize first that all we do, does have limitations. The very best restoration job with the best products performed by the most experienced craftsman----is not perfect and there will most certainly be periodic maintenance needed.

Older more experienced customer realize this and even when told an "over statement" during a selling session knows to prod the seller a bit to get to a more realistic, feature or expectation.

Younger customers will tend to believe or expect to realize most evey thing a seller will tell them concerning features or longevity expectations.
Some may even have formed their own unrealistic expectations on a product or service and press the seller to give them these, sometimes unrealistic expectations. Especially if they read some of the segments here on the forum concerning 5o year putty or even 300 year putty only needing an oil treatment every 100 years or so. Ha many times customers will pick out the exceptions or the out of the ordinary with the expectation of getting those products or service features for their home.

I know I can't give glazing that'll last 300 years. I can't warrant even a 50 year putty lastablility. Not, saying my putty jobs won't, just saying I can't warranty for that long. I won't even warranty a 50 year putty job on John's words. In fact, I only know for a fact that my putty jobs have lasted past 10 years.

The point is, those of us in the production world of window restoration , whether its 1000 sashes per year or 100 sashes per year need to take care that we don't sell unreasonable expectations. Most customers will buy most everying thing we well them. They rely on our experience to produce what we sell them.

At some point we need to recognize the actual value of what we are selling. It is far better to undersell then oversell. We can be proud of our level of quality. I remember when I first began making storm windows. I called them "B" quality. They were good, but just had a few mistakes that didn't interfere with function. I priced these "B" quality storms accordingly to what I thought they were worth. Shoot, I was proud of em and I sold the heck out of em and I made money with em.

Don't oversell, be proud of your work, and be truthfull to your customers.

Steve S
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Skuce



Joined: 08 Nov 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnleeke wrote:
Quote:
The wrinkling from the fast dry alkyd primers is annoying to say the least. My assumption is that the primer is shrinking when it dries.


I've investigated half-a-dozen cases of wrinkled putty surface on windows all around the country. In most cases the slow-evaporating solvents in slow-dry primers penetrate down into the putty skin, expanding it, which causes the wrinkling. Then the surface of the primer dries, setting the wrinkles, then the solvents eventually come back out through the primer, tightening and setting the wrinkles. The solution has been to switch to fast-dry primers, and let the putty skin over a little longer before priming or top-coating.

But, there are other factors involved. I've only had it happen once in my own shop on one sash that we were rushing through, probably without enough time for skinning over. When I tried to recreate the wrinkling for my test with penetrating slow-dry primer the wrinkles did not happen--go figure.


I've come across a couple interesting things regarding wrinkling on a non-skinned putty surface.

Glazing Putty....~5 minutes... Prime with a Fast Dry Alkyd... Paint with Alkyd. (All while each layer is just past thumb print dry)
=No wrinkles.

Glazing Putty....~5 minutes...Prime with a Fast Dry Alkyd...~overnight....Paint with Alkyd.
=Wrinkles

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PSC Heritage Restoration
5-48 Woodslee Ave. Paris, Ont. Canada
www.ParadigmShiftCustoms.com
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have split off the "Side Edges Bare and Weep Holes to keep sash dry" discussion and posted it over here:

http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1779

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stoffelsj



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:25 pm    Post subject: putty analysis Reply with quote

I've read this entire thread hoping to find that technology has finally reached window glazing, but no such luck, I guess. I hoped that maybe Glaze-Ease 601 was actually a decent alternative to putty, but that seems not to be the case. It still seems to be oil-prep the rabbets, bed, pack and trim.

My problem is that I've had to do this too many times on the same windows. I've never gotten more than ten years of service from a glazing job.

Maybe it's the windows themselves. Most comments here talk about double hung windows. I have all casement windows, about half are sixty year old Andersons, and the other half are 90-year old cedar cottage windows. The casements, unlike double hungs, are subject to twisting/torquing when opening and closing, and I think that motion may contribute to loosening the putty joints.

I thought what I needed was a more "elastic" glazing compound that wouldn't break loose from the twisting, but I can't seem to find that magic product.

Apart from that, I've done it all by the book with prep, glazing, dry-time and multi-coat painting overlapped onto the glass, always up to now with oil-base BM. I have used Dap33 in the past (all that was locally available), and I guess I could hope that switchcing to Sarco Type M wil help.

But those sixty windows translate into 242 panes of glass, and it's a royal pain to have to repeatedly redo this every 10 years or less. BM paint, and particularly bm primers aren't what they used to be either. I'm switching to Flood SWF which has worked great on my decks.

I've even thought of switching to a system of 1/4 round and brads, maybe enbedded in a bead of latex caulk, and getting rid of the putty joint altogether.

Any thoughts or suggestions on glazing would be greatly appreciated

John
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've read this entire thread hoping to find that technology has finally reached window glazing, but no such luck, I guess.


Technology has reach window glazing, and the technology reached its limit about a century ago--a lot of changes since then, but not many improvements. The technology we know works best and longest is the 'traditional technology' that you read so much about here.

Quote:
I hoped that maybe Glaze-Ease 601 was actually a decent alternative to putty, but that seems not to be the case.


On the contrary, 601 works quite well, but it requires very different application methods and techniques than traditional putties. Workers who have used traditional putties for years usually don't want to bother learning how to use stuff like 601 that is very different than they are used to.

Quote:
It still seems to be oil-prep the rabbets, bed, pack and trim.


Yep, proven by the test of time (centuries), used by some, loved by a few. (It's the method and the love that makes it work, not the product. No kidding. May even sound stupid, but after four decades of this work that's one of the conclusions I'm coming to. It might even be possible to 'love' bubble gum into being effective window putty. Hey, I think I'll run that through the next round of putty testing I do.)

Quote:
My problem is that I've had to do this too many times on the same windows. I've never gotten more than ten years of service from a glazing job.


Are you getting complete 100% failure after ten years, or spot failure?
Maybe all you need is putty maintenance and repairs:
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1574
Maybe your paint is failing, which leads to putty failure.

Quote:
Maybe it's the windows themselves. Most comments here talk about double hung windows. I have all casement windows, about half are sixty year old Andersons, and the other half are 90-year old cedar cottage windows.The casements, unlike double hungs, are subject to twisting/torquing when opening and closing, and I think that motion may contribute to loosening the putty joints.


The Anderson windows are made for the modern "consumer market" so they depart from the traditional window technologies we talk most about here. But, I thing they should respond well to traditional putty and paint methods. Steve and others have worked on these modern window more than I have, so maybe he and others will chime in. The "cottage windows" are old enough that they probable fit into the "traditional technology" category.

Quote:
I thought what I needed was a more "elastic" glazing compound that wouldn't break loose from the twisting,


Could be, I'll be interested to hear what Steve has to say.

Quote:
but I can't seem to find that magic product.


There are no magic products. The idea of magic products comes from the "disposable consumer products" industry, which does not make anything that will give long life to window maintenance methods. "Magic products" is just ruse to get "consumers" to buy stuff they don't need.

Quote:
Apart from that, I've done it all by the book with prep, glazing, dry-time and multi-coat painting overlapped onto the glass, always up to now with oil-base BM.


You might just be struggling with lower quality windows made for the consumer market, but the combined wisdom here might help you. Tell us more about the details of your windows, methods, materials and techniques. I immediately suspect your paint materials and methods, so you might start there.

Quote:
I have used Dap33 in the past (all that was locally available), and I guess I could hope that switching to Sarco Type M will help.


Could be, but most of success comes from methods, techniques and worker knowledge.

Quote:
BM paint, and particularly bm primers aren't what they used to be either.


True enough. Combine that with consumer-grade windows and that might be most of your difficulty.

Quote:
I'm switching to Flood SWF which has worked great on my decks.


??? Well, decks are different than windows, but who am I to say it wouldn't work. Before I used that on all the windows I'd test that idea out on half of one sash, with the other half done the standard way. Then wait a few years to see how it holds up.

Quote:
I've even thought of switching to a system of 1/4 round and brads, maybe embedded in a bead of latex caulk, and getting rid of the putty joint altogether.


This is called stick glazing. It can work on sash designed for it. I have seen stick glazing retrofit fail many times. (But then, I'm the one they call to solve the failure problems.) It's true that stick glazing will not fail like putty, but it does have it's own way of failing.

Hope this helps.

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stoffelsj



Joined: 26 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I hoped that maybe Glaze-Ease 601 was actually a decent alternative to putty, but that seems not to be the case

On the contrary, 601 works quite well, but it requires very different application methods and techniques than traditional putties. Workers who have used traditional putties for years usually don't want to bother learning how to use stuff like 601 that is very different than they are used to. .


I'm happy to hear that from an expert. I've watched the video, and it's CLEARLY different in texture and application, probably messy, and not "window shop" oriented. But it might still be in the running if it could meet my needs for a more elastic product?

Quote:
My problem is that I've had to do this too many times on the same windows. I've never gotten more than ten years of service from a glazing job.

Are you getting complete 100% failure after ten years, or spot failure?
Maybe all you need is putty maintenance and repairs:
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1574.


You could be on track here; I'd never heard 'til today on this thread of the paint the putty with oil maintenance recommendation. No, not 100% failure, but it is worse on the windows that open (and torque/twist) vs. those that are fixed.


Quote:
Maybe your paint is failing, which leads to putty failure..


Paint failure probably contributes to recent failures, because of the declining quality of BM products. But in '80 and '90 BM had top quality oil/alkyd products, and I still had the putty breakout problem.

Quote:
Maybe it's the windows themselves. Most comments here talk about double hung windows. I have all casement windows, about half are sixty year old Andersons, and the other half are 90-year old cedar cottage windows.The casements, unlike double hungs, are subject to twisting/torquing when opening and closing, and I think that motion may contribute to loosening the putty joints.

The Anderson windows are made for the modern "consumer market" so they depart from the traditional window technologies we talk most about here. But, I thing they should respond well to traditional putty and paint methods. Steve and others have worked on these modern window more than I have, so maybe he and others will chime in. The "cottage windows" are old enough that they probable fit into the "traditional technology" category..


The Andersons were putty jointed "out of the box, single glazed with removable interior storm window. Very much like "real" windows back then.

Quote:
You might just be struggling with lower quality windows made for the consumer market, but the combined wisdom here might help you. Tell us more about the details of your windows, methods, materials and techniques. I immediately suspect your paint materials and methods, so you might start there.


Scrape and sand sash; remove old glazing, glass, bedding; scrape rabbets; prime rabbets with boiled linseed oil; wait a day or so; bed, point, glaze (usually with Dap33); wait two days or so; prime window and glazing with BM oil-based primer; then two coats of BM oil based enamel, always overlapping onto glass. VARIATION: On windows where there were chunks of adhered glazing, keep those chunks, obviously don't remove glass, and proceed as above, including blo prime.

Quote:
I'm switching to Flood SWF which has worked great on my decks

??? Well, decks are different than windows, but who am I to say it wouldn't work. Before I used that on all the windows I'd test that idea out on half of one sash, with the other half done the standard way. Then wait a few years to see how it holds up.


Tell you what: Since time may be running out on my "paint the 60 windows hobby," (I'm 70), I'll make the whole project a test! I've already waited a few years to see the failure of the paint on the last seven windows I did. I'll report back on the Flood test. I don't know what your experience is, but in mine decks take more of a beating than windows with wear and weather, so I'm....hopeful.

Thanks so much for your helpful reply and questions. I look forward to more.

John (Coldwater, Michigan, USA)
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