Putty Analysis
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Allback Linseed Oil Putty, from Sweeden Reply with quote

So, PermaGlaze is no longer available, but a new putty has appeared on the market.

Allback Linseed Glazing Putty . Made from raw, sterilized, linseed oil.

http://www.solventfreepaint.com/window_glazing.htm

it has just recently been imported to this country, it does appear to be a good product with good performance. If Alback putty is used also use their paint and follow their methods on the website (even includes videos!)

At the Chicago preservation conference last month I met up with Hans Allback, who developed the Linseed Oil Putty based on European traditions. I first learned about Hans and his putty back in the 1990s. Now, I finally got to handle some of the stuff and it is nice. I now have some in my shop and am including Allback Linseed Oil Putty in my putty testing and analysis and showing it at my workshops and training sessions.

Hans says, "Made of linseed oil so pure you can eat it," he then pops a tasty morsel in his mouth, chews it up and swallows, with a big grin. (I know, I know, this has little to do with how it performs as a window putty.)

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Last edited by johnleeke on Thu May 04, 2006 7:14 am; edited 3 times in total
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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 785
Location: Hawley MA

PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this mean that we no longer need to leave the shop for meals???

From what I have read, this does sound like a good product. The price however is five times the cost of PermaGlaze and, as Alison said, we'd have numerous plastic quart buckets to dispose of. I'd like to see the price come down quite a bit AND be able to paint with traditional paint before I invest in this new linseed oil putty.

A gallon of cleaned linseed oil costs 16 times more than a gallon of gas!! I'm skeptical.....and perhaps a bit cynical too........

....Jade
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not saying it's an exact replacement for PermaGlaze, but I am saying it is worth considering. Worth considering on its technical merits, and on its economic merits. Pricing is part of the consideration. I definitely agree that bulk packaging is necessary. Soren Eriksson, the importer, is very approachable, so I suspect he would respond to requests for bulk packaging and be willing to negociate lower pricing.

While the cost might be 500% greater than PermaGlaze, it is possible to do a more business-like materials cost increase analysis. The telling comparison would be to determine the dollar increase for a whole window project, then determine by what percentage the total cost of the project increases. (my guess is not more than 1 percent). Then, finally, determine if that increase is worth any advantage the putty has to offer, such as the ability to paint the putty right after placing it. What is the dollar value of labor and time getting putty to skin over so it can be painted? What is the cost of having to research and develop the use of a new putty every year or two? (like we have the past two years) Compare that to the dollar increase per project of the new putty. I'm not saying that you will necessarily come out ahead, but I am saying that this is a more business-like way to look at the issue.

John
(with permanent putty deposits under 85% of his fingernails)
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert Yapp Jr. wrote:
Quote:
Thanks John, I'm blown away and down to my last quart of Perma-Glaze. Glazol by UGL is not nearly as good and I'm not sure what the makeup is but I know that it skins over for painting within 24 hours and is holding up after years of exposure. Let me know what you find as well.


I am now including Glazol in the analysis, but don't have definitive results for skin-over yet. See the messages earlier in this discussion:

http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=131&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=7

Quote:
I met Hans in Chicago too and he digested putty for my amusement. He claims it's so pure it can be painted directly after application. There must be some reason "purity" affects cure time/quality. Any thoughts on this?


Yes, Hans says it's the starch that is refined out of the linseed oil. This fits in with the Forest Products Labs' research on why the bugs, mold and mildew grow on some paint materials and not others, (with the natural oils they are eating the starch component in the binder resins) which has proven out in my hands-on work and "side-by-side comparison field research" over the decades. So, I tend to believe Hans on this technical point.


Quote:
Do you have the contact info for his US distributor?


http://www.solventfreepaint.com/window_glazing.htm

Quote:
Your using it, what do you think?


I'm just getting started with it. I'll keep everyone posted here on the Forum. Dennis Livingston in Baltimore has used it on at least one project this year and like the initial results. Since it's newly imported, none of us have long-term results in this country. However, Swedish windows and weather are very similar to northern USA, so I tend to believe Hans's claims for service life performance.

Quote:
Another guy I help out likes Sarco Putty for wood sash and so does John Seekircher for steel sash. I've never tried it, is it linseed or soy bean oil like DAP?


I'll add Sarco to my analysis. Who is the supplier?

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:25 am    Post subject: Sarco putty Reply with quote

Jade writes:

Hi All......

Just ordered two 2-gallon containers of Sarco soy oil based glazing putty. I spoke with Ed who is their technical person. He says the product skins over in about 24 hours and there should be less of an issue with oil separation as experienced with PermaGlaze. I also requested an MSDS and a technical data sheet. Denise is also sending a credit application.

The product is sold in 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 gallon containers. Pricing is per gallon.
1 gallon...$11.75....2/$11.45....3/$11.20....4/$11.15 and 5 gallon container is $11.05 per gallon....at these prices it would be wise to repackage the 5 gallon container and sell smaller amounts at a profit....if only I had the time......

Ok, I just got a call from Denise who told me that Ed won't be filling 2 gallon containers for another week so she is shipping a 5 gallon container. With shipping, it is still cheaper than PermaGlaze. I will separate the product into smaller sizes and have it available for others to try. The product is manufactured in small batches. They will be happy to increase their output of the product based on new incoming orders.

Jim...I too wondered if Schnee-Morehead would be willing to manufacture amounts to supply us here on the east coast. I have been told that the raw materials they used are no longer available--I imagine what they mean is that they are no longer available at an affordable price. I had intended to contact Brosco to see which product they used. Years ago the putty was a goldish color. If Sarco putty indeed is a superior product we would be well advised to plan ahead and try to get as many folks as possible to purchase the product and be sure of its continued availability.

To Schnee-Morehead's credit, they have contacted Sarco to let them know that they may want to increace production.

Sarco Putty
Chicago
Ed--factory
Denise--office
800-969-7889 or 773-735-5577

....Jade

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 1:42 pm    Post subject: Sarco Reply with quote

Jade writes on 5/16:

On Friday May 12, I used the Sarco glazing putty for the first time. As stated by the manufacturer, the 5 gallon container was well mixed with no oil rising to the top. The container is plastic which I prefer to metal. With shipping, I paid $114.03 for the 5 gallons.

I applied a thin ribbon of the putty--perhaps 3/16' deep by 3/8" wide--to the sash/glass after bedding the glass. This is a storm sash and the glass size is 35"x35". The putty tooled well and adhered well. It's a bit sticky on the hands and I found myself cleaning up with turps more often than with other products. My shop temperature is at about 65 degrees during the day and an average of about 50 degrees overnight. I have the puttied sashes positioned about 4 feet from the warm (not hot) air of my pellet stove and 2 feet from a fan set at low. The fan is on a timer and blows for about 4-5 hours a day.

After 24 hours, the putty had a thin cool skin but did not appear ready for painting. Prior to purchasing the product I asked Ed Sarsfield, Sarco owner (I stated specifically in comparison to PermaGlaze which takes about 48 hours of drying prior to painting) how long it would take for the Sarco putty to skin over for priming. He indicated 24 hours. Perhaps I was not clear enough, but what I meant was how long before the putty could be primed/painted. When I spoke with him yesterday, he indicated 5 days to a week depending on the conditions. It does take 24 hours to skin over, but 4 to 6 days more to prime/paint. Not very good news I must admit.

Yesterday, after about 72 hours of drying, I applied Minwax stain to a small test area of the glazed storm sash. Immediately it began to wrinkle. After 5 hours, I observed the putty had turned soft under the stain. That's when I phoned Ed Sarsfield. Apparently, the solvents in the stain wreak havoc with the putty (I have been talking with Steve and Jim about this and am not totally surprised). He said he had never heard of anyone attempting to use stain over the putty--fair enough. He suggested that possibly if I let the putty sit for 2 weeks, then try the stain, it may work. When I asked him what type of primer he would suggest, he seemed not to understand my question. He said he had never had that question posed to him--??? To clarify, I asked if he would recommend using Bin, Kilz or another fast drying primer as opposed to a product such as Sherwin Williams A-100 or similar oil primer. He had never heard of Bin or Kilz! He then indicated that no primer was required and that an oil based or latex finish paint could be applied directly over the putty.

Yesterday I used the putty on 6 over 6 sash with glazing rabbets of a depth and width of about 1/2". The product really does tool nicely....if only it would dry in less time....more to come......

Jade writes on 5/19:

I'm happy to report that I was able to prime Thursday, with good results, the putty that I applied on Monday. Time elapsed--72 hours, not bad. I used Benjamin Moore oil based Fast Primer--has a 4 hour drying time.

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 1:51 pm    Post subject: Sarco at Duffy's Reply with quote

Duffy Hoffman reports that he has recently been trying out Sarco putty again. Years ago he had used a Sarco product. Using certain methods and additives he has gotten Sarco "M" to skin over enough to paint within 48 hours.

Duffy has offered to share his putty and window knowledge by teaching a one-day training session at his shop in Pennsylvania. He has not yet formally organized the training session, so I hope he will announce it here at the forum when he does.

(Duffy and I have been talking about co-teaching a windows workshop since last year, but we have not yet gotten it together. Considering Duffy's decades of experience and level of knowledge I think I would be more like a student than a teacher.)

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jade and Duffy:

Specifically, which Sarco product are you using? (name & number?)

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woodturner



Joined: 23 May 2006
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 5:18 am    Post subject: Has anyone considered making their own putty? Reply with quote

Given that glazing putty, at least the "good" stuff, seems to be a fairly simple formulation and that suppliers seem to stop making it on a regular basis, it seems like making your own might be a viable option.

This would also resolve the issue of the high shipping costs due to the weight of the material, assuming the raw materials are available locally.

Has anyone tried making their own? From my brief research, it appears that linseed oil and limestone dust are the primary components of glazing putty. Does anyone have a formula or other information on how to "make your own"?

Thanks.
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jade



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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woodturner....yes, many of us have all thought about making our own putty whether for personal use or for marketing. Personally, I don't won't to be responsible for a product with no history to fall back on--what if it is great to work with, takes paint perfectly but fails in 2 years??? Anyone else up for the challenge? I like being able to offer my customers products that have a proven history.....

The Sarco product I am using is Multi-Glaze Type M. The product information claims that it is for 'wood sash only'. It is available in Natural (whitish) and grey. The Multi-Glaze (not type M) is for use with wood or steel sash and is available in Natural and Aluminum Grey. In all, Sarco manufactures/sells 11 (3 are 'pure linseed', some for steel or aluminum sash) types of glazing putty. Multi-Glaze Type M is marketed to the 'professional' and has a quicker drying time than the others.
Sarco also sells pure linseed oil putties--3 types. One especially for stained glass, one called Surset which is a commercial grade (?) and the other I assume is similar to your typical linseed oil putty that takes a very long time to dry.....I will do a bit more research on this.....

So far I am happy with the handling and drying time using Type M. It dried enough to prime with oil primer within 72 hours. I have now applied two finish coats of acrylic latex paint and there has been no wrinkling.......

More to come.....
...Jade
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Comparitive Field Test Reply with quote

I'm using the Allback putty and paint system this week. I'm finding it "slick & quick" to apply. I met Hans Allback at the Chicago conference in March. He showed me how he works with these materials, so I have the benefit of seeing and learning the traditional Swedish methods and techniques. I shot a little video of him glazing and handling the putty. It's not particularly good "footage" but I may post it at my website when I get time.

On one of the sash I'm doing one of my famous "Comparative Field Tests," with half the sash using the "Swedish system" and half using my standard "American system." When I get this test done later this week, I'll post my notes (drawings, photos, maybe even video) at the Historic HomeWorks Forum, in the windows section, with my impressions and assessment of application, including production times. Of course, the real results will come in future years as we see how each holds up. The test is of the complete paint-putty schedule, step-by-step from bare wood sash to painted complete, all standard "best practice" for both systems.

After a "deep" discussion with Hans Allback about old wood, wood deterioration, weather, new paint and traditional paint, new windows and old windows, and the technology of traditional and modern paint-putty systems, I believe he is on the same track that I am. You can get my brief "take" on this at:

http://www.historichomeworks.com/hhw/qa/qa07.htm

Hans describes nearly the same history and product development through the 20th century in Europe. So I'm tending to trust his claims of performance and durability, which, by the way, is just about the same as we were getting in this country during the late 19th and early 20th century, until the paint industry shifted to "modern" alkyd and modified products.

For the Swedish system in the comparitive test, I'm using Allback's procedure exactly. For the American system I'm using my own shop's standard procedure. I asked Duffy if he wanted to supply me with his procedure for this field test, but he preferred not to, but is willing to teach it to any one who wants to go to his shop for a training session. He does not currently have a training session organized or scheduled. I have been to three of his presentations on paint and putty, and his procedure is not dramatically different than mine. (There are differences that may be important upon which I would deferr to his depth of experience.)

My initial impression is that the Swedish system takes 10-15% less direct labor time to apply (even on my first use of it). Start to finish calander time looks like it's about the same or perhaps 10% longer for the Swedish system. Overall the Sweedish system takes less effort, which means longer work sessions with better control of the details such as painting to the line along the glass (so no returning to scrape paint off glass saves time too.) Plus it's completely solventless, so it causes less damage to the ol' brain cells and the enviornment (the only enviornmental downside I can find with it is associated with the fuel used for the shipment from Europe).

Watch the Forum for more on the testing...

John
by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought

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Muffin



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Sarco Putty Reply with quote

After experiencing VERY long skin-over times for DAP 33, and after Dave Bowers pointed me to this forum (thank you Dave!) I contacted Sarco to try and purchase some of the 'Multi-Glaze Type M' that 'jade' is using and that others recommend.

I was bounced between Ed and Denise at Sarco several times in a confusing call mainly because they assumed I was a professional window manufacturer at first, asking for that product. It seems they mainly sell Type M to manufacturers and you have to go through the process of opening an account with them to acquire the product. Frustratingly, they would only sell me a minimum of 5 gallons and I would either need to open an account with credit references, or send a certified check ahead of the order. I have 38 sash panels to do, but I still estimate that I would only need 2 to 3 gallons at the most.

When I made it clearer who I was (home restorer) and what my needs were, Ed recommended that I try their other linseed-based product instead, but then talked himself out of selling it to me as in his words, "DAP 33 normally skins over faster than our product anyway. With the cost of shipping added, you may aswell stick with the DAP product and buy it locally."

So I really didn't get anywhere fast. I guess I'll have to make do with the long setup time (especially long in humid NH right now) even with a fan and a dehumidifier in my basement.

Rgds,
Martin
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woodturner



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:01 pm    Post subject: long cure time with Glazol? Reply with quote

Glazol might be another option - it's available at hardware stores in some parts of the country. FWIW, it's about $4.50 a quart around here - less than DAP 33.

I just did a storm window with Glazol two weeks ago. It has skinned a little bit, but is still pretty soft.

Does it need to be "hard" to paint with oil based paint? Is there anything I can do to make future glazing set up faster? IIRC, on the video conference John suggested a bit of plaster of paris mixed in with the putty. How much can be added safely, and how much difference will it make?

What curing conditions will accelerate the curing? Hot? Dry?

Thanks.
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The drying effect of plaster of Paris is very slight, not pronounced. Do not add large amounts, just dust a little onto a rag on laying on the bench, pat your hands on the rag, and roll your wad of putty on the rag--about like you would do when making bread dough. The main benefit is better handling, keeping the putty from sticking to your hands.

You can see it here in the replay of the video conference demonstration:

http://flash.kmi.open.ac.uk:8080/fm/memo.php?pwd=f26428-5122&jt=00:23:51.6

Warmer temperatures accelerate drying. Blowing air across the sash with a fan helps drying a lot. You might try setting the sash and glazing in the direct sunlight, although consider this an experiement rather than a recommendation.

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jade



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

martin.....
sorry you had so much trouble in ordering a few gallons of sarco. ed and denise are a couple--the sarfields--so it is a 'mom and pop' outfit.

i had them send my 5 gallons ups/cod and had no trouble at all. next time around i will order in gallons (the type m product is available in 1,2,3,4 & 5 gallon containers). once the container is opened, a small amount of oil rises to the top. i make a round plastic covered cardboard top to set on top of the putty to eliminate some air flow. still the small amount of oil begins to harden leaving a very thin layer of solidifyiing oil which can cause bumps to show after application. having gallon containers will eliminate this problem to some degree. i heat my putty and the oil melts so i have no real problems with it.

if you are doing 38 sash, i think you may very well need 5 gallons. the product is cheaper then dap33 or glazol--with shipping, i think it comes to $19 a gallon, not bad. it dries in no more than 72 hours but with my setup, i can prime in 48 hours...i use ben moore or california fast dry oil primer

i would stay away from direct sunlight, too hot....a dehumifier and a fan blowing directly on the sash is what works for me....i set my fan up so that it blows on the sides at an angle for numerous sash...for one sash, i put the fan so that it aims for the exterior glazed side

i don't know what's up with ed and denise...i think they need to work a little better with customers......i was not impressed with ed's lack of knowledge about what primers to use with his products.....

...jade
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