Putty Analysis
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Jack Cadwell



Joined: 21 Mar 2009
Posts: 21
Location: Warwick, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John in Coldwater, Michigan,

Do you have storms? Do the casements swing out? Does water condense on the glass?

Ten years seems like a short lifespan for all that work.

Jack Cadwell
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stoffelsj



Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack Cadwell wrote:
Hi John in Coldwater, Michigan,

Do you have storms? Do the casements swing out? Does water condense on the glass?

Ten years seems like a short lifespan for all that work.

Jack Cadwell


Hi Jack,

The windows swing out. Storms are clip-mounted on the inside of the sash. Air vents are 95% efficient at keeping condensation out of the system, though there is some occasional fogging on some of the windows on very cold days.

John
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

don't suppose you have some pictures that could show us what to look for?

i tried glaze ease about 3 years ago, maybe 2 and a half, don't remember exactly when but in that range. put it on one large fixed window, and 3 double hungs. none of them get alot of sun exposure, but two are in direct path of the rain.

so far they're all holding up fine, under sherwin williams oil enamel.
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bjames



Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John

I have been reading thru the section regarding glazing compounds/glazing putty which seems to have begun around July of 2005 and goes thru to my question today. I need more specific information.
I would like to ask your assistance in determining what brand(s) you might reccommend for 19, 9 light, wooden window sash that need to be reglazed "in place". Other factors to take into consideration are that the building is located at 9954 ft elevation and temperature as well as curing time must be considered at which the galzing putty can successfully perform. Oh yes, did I mention that this is a historic building?
The forum discussions include the names of Old Time Putty, Sarco Type M, Sarco Dual-Glaze, Aqua Glaze, Perma-E-Lastic, Perma Glaze, Glazol and Crawford's Painter's Putty. All of these brands are totally unfamiliar to me (my only exposure to them is reading about them in your forum; I have glazed a little previously, using a Dap product), having said that, Crawford's Painter's Putty has been reccommended; but again, I have no hands on knowledge and would greatly appreciate your & other's feedback regarding this matter.
Thanks for your time
bjames[size=18][/size][size=7][/size][size=12][/size]
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2924
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJames, welcome to the forum.

Are you in Colorado? Can we presume it is an arid climate at that elevation?

Is winter coming tomorrow? If possible do glazing when over night temps are still above 45 F. for at least a few week after glazing for longest service life. If there is a risk of freezing over night definitely do not use a water-based putty like AquaGlaze or Glaze-Ease 601.

Any of the traditional linseed-oil putties should work, like Allback Linseed Putty or Sarco Dual Glaze. (Sarco Type M is recommended by the manufacturer for shop use only and not exterior use).

If you are in the high Rockies, you might expect extremely low winter temps, with winter sun warming the glass in a morning flash, so the modern glazing compounds that have higher resilience might give a longer service life than traditional putties. This would include Glazol and Perm-A-Lastic. The highly elastic Glaze-Ease 601 might be good.

This is based on theory, I have no actual experience in high mountain glazing.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
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freedomdepartment



Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:03 pm    Post subject: Allback glazing putty Reply with quote

So now that a few years have passed since this thread was started, do any of you who have tested/used the Allback linseed glazing putty have any comments as to its longevity?

Also, would you prefer Allback or Sarco putty, and why?

Thanks!
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Hannah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 74
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, what a thread! I read all ten pages, took hours! This thread has answered many questions for me but created many more.

Here's my M.O. I am planning to use the Sarco type M for my sixty-five year old wood sashes. They've been horribly neglected for decades, many panes are held in only by points, but luckily the aluminum storms have helped keep everything relatively dry. The wood is mostly sound and most of the original glass is intact. My location is Kansas--cold, dry winters and hot, humid summers. I am deglazing and stripping paint by steam/steam box.

And here are my questions.

1) How is it possible to re-oil your glazing putty every 10 years if the putty has been painted over?

2) Just to check: Whiting=chalk=lime=calcium carbonate?

3) Can Sarco Type M putty be stored underwater to prevent drying like some of the other putties discussed? Or should it be vacuum-sealed and frozen?

4) I've followed the discussion on whether to prime--both before and after glazing, and heard many, many opinions and anecdotes. Once the sash is down to bare wood, I tentatively plan to:

a) treat the raw wood with boiled linseed oil (but not the sash edges!) I might do this twice, as I'm sure the wood is very dry and thirsty.
b) put a little putty down on the treated wood, set in the glass, then glaze and tool
c) brush with whiting and allow to skin over 3-5 days
d) clean up the glass and prime the sash (but not the glazing putty or the sash edges!)
e) paint the sash including over the putty (but not the sash edges!)
d) reinstall the sash

And I want to know if there is some egregious error with this process that I've outlined.

I plan to salvage a "junk" sash from somewhere to practice on first, to test out the steam box I'm building, practice my tooling methods, etc. I've (perhaps obviously) never attempted anything like this before, but I am known as being rather handy. Thanks!

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Andy in NH



Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 92
Location: Lyndeborough, NH

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hannah,

A few answers;

#2 - whiting/chalk/calcium carbonate is correct. 'Lime" can encompass a wide variety of consistencies so be carefull of that.

#3 - I have had customers who have had year old bags of vacuum sealed type M be just fine when opened. You can store the putty under water or in the freezer but I advise folks to plan for 1 year of shelf life. I always have bags in stock and can ship as needed.

#4-a I treat the entire sash with a generous application of bioled linseed oiil and turpentine (50/50 cut). Others use Penetrol in the mix as well. I would avoid just the linseed oil and in any case be sure to wipe all excess oil off after around 15 minutes. Dispose of rags in a bucket of water or an airtight container as they can spontaneously combust if left in a pile.

#4-b Back bedding is good (use the Sarco) and don't forget to set your points before final glazing.

#4-c Use a 2" junky paint brush to apply your whiting and you will be able to sweep off most of the oils on the glass as well.

$4-d Opinions vary on priming the putty. I prime the putty as well as the sash so that I get a consistant color base and have never had a problem as long os the putty has cured properly.

Good luck and keep us posted with pictures!

Andy
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Hannah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 74
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy in NH wrote:
Hannah,

A few answers;

#2 - whiting/chalk/calcium carbonate is correct. 'Lime" can encompass a wide variety of consistencies so be carefull of that.

#3 - I have had customers who have had year old bags of vacuum sealed type M be just fine when opened. You can store the putty under water or in the freezer but I advise folks to plan for 1 year of shelf life. I always have bags in stock and can ship as needed.

#4-a I treat the entire sash with a generous application of bioled linseed oiil and turpentine (50/50 cut). Others use Penetrol in the mix as well. I would avoid just the linseed oil and in any case be sure to wipe all excess oil off after around 15 minutes. Dispose of rags in a bucket of water or an airtight container as they can spontaneously combust if left in a pile.

#4-b Back bedding is good (use the Sarco) and don't forget to set your points before final glazing.

#4-c Use a 2" junky paint brush to apply your whiting and you will be able to sweep off most of the oils on the glass as well.

$4-d Opinions vary on priming the putty. I prime the putty as well as the sash so that I get a consistant color base and have never had a problem as long os the putty has cured properly.

Good luck and keep us posted with pictures!

Andy


Thank you, Andy! I will be sure to use 50/50 terp/boiled linseed oil, and to wipe off the excess after 15 minutes--that's just like a stain! I do have glazing points, forgot to mention that step. Oh, and since the putty is oil-based and the wood has been treated with oils, does it follow I should use oil-based primer? And oil-based paint?

Someone mentioned something scary to me--that they had heard through the grapevine that the EPA was going to eventually outlaw oil-based paint along with incandescent light bulbs. Eeep!

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Hannah
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Andy in NH



Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 92
Location: Lyndeborough, NH

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good quality acrylic paint will work just fine for the topcoats. When a high gloss is needed I have been using Rustoleum's water based paint with very good results thus far (though the pain has only been out a few years).

Sad to say that it does indeed look like oil paints will continue to diminish in availablity.
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2924
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy writes:
Quote:
A good quality acrylic paint will work just fine for the topcoats.


I agree, but with acrylic topcoats be sure to not paint the side margins of the sash faces (where the stops and parting beads will rub on the sash), so the sash does not stick due to paint blocking (sticking). See minute 11 of the sash painting video:
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=955


Quote:
Sad to say that it does indeed look like oil paints will continue to diminish in availability.


Don't worry, be happy. As quality of paint from the manufacturers drops, we can start making our own paint of good quality. I know of three window specialists who now make their own paint and/or putty, and one homeowner who is making her own paint for painting her entire house.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
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Hannah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 74
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnleeke wrote:

I agree, but with acrylic topcoats be sure to not paint the side margins of the sash faces (where the stops and parting beads will rub on the sash), so the sash does not stick due to paint blocking (sticking). See minute 11 of the sash painting video:
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=955


I'll remember that, Mr. Leeke! I plan to do this like the Bob Ross painting show on T.V.--having your tutorial playing on my laptop next to my glazing easel, following along step-by-step with you. Man oh man, I'd love to take one of your classes. Maybe someday.

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Hannah
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2924
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does your laptop have a camera? We could do a live video conference training session.

I'll let you know if I get to KC.

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John

by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought


Last edited by johnleeke on Wed May 25, 2011 6:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Hannah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 74
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, really? My laptop does have a camera. I'm not set up yet...still waiting on some tools. Plus I think I've found a whole new can of worms in the form of...not sash cords but sash springs. I'm posting that topic to the sash cord thread. A video tutorial would be awesome, though! I will let you know when I get to that point.

Andy in NH--you sell Sarco type M? I was only able to find one distributor, at smithrestorationsash.com. They charge $40 for a gallon, plus $16 shipping. Can you do me a better deal?

Thanks everybody! I love this community of window restorers and glaziers, everyone has been so nice and so helpful!

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Hannah
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Andy in NH



Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 92
Location: Lyndeborough, NH

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One gallon (net weight ) of putty is about 16 lbs. I sell 3 bags (15 lbs) for $48 INCLUDING shipping. Additional advantage of the vacuum sealed bags is less worry over putty drying out.
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