Is dipping sash sin? If so, The Brown Ooze is pergatory
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 569
Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your input Steve. I agree with you. Did you know? Lead has a sweet taste. Thats probably why a child once he/she has chewed on a window sill will do it again and again. that could explain why one family's child would show high lead and not another.

I think this subject is important enough that this discussion should be ongoing with imput from everyone. We all do our homework to be the best restorers that we can. Educating ourselves and potential customer on a common sense approach to respiratory protection may very well save our industry from extreme unrealistic government intervention. This could be a very good venue as part of that.

The value of this forum again has show to be valuable. Greg, thank you for working up a quote for me for the door. I am digesting the numbers and will be talking to Jeff next week. You our a good contact and I am looking forward to meeting you in person. You know your stuff, bud!

Steve s
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Historicdoor



Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 94
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana

PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 2:46 am    Post subject: Group Hug Reply with quote

Steve and Steve, thank you both for your kind words...can be lonely out here in the small business world; sure am glad to be making new professional friends "in the business"!

Thanks to you too, John, for making this Forum available to us so that we can learn from each other!

And one more: Steve, thanks for the feedback on our door "conversation" Was very glad to help! Hope your upcoming meeting goes well. Let me know if you need anything more as you prepare for the meeting, or if you want me to make a presentation of some kind to help them with their decsion.

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Gregory
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SpinozaQ



Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 24
Location: Rochester NY

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with "sschoberg" on paint stripping. Nothing beats good human technique. It took me quite some time to "give up" on all the different crazy chemical paint strippers ( I must have bought like 5 different ones ) and bow to the almighty heat gun used properly.

I've now stripped the gum-wood trim in a bed-room and a living room ( consisting of 5 door ways and 5 windows in an old Victorian. ) I can remove over 90% of the paint in a single pass with the heat gun, and after some practice the speed you can achieve is quite great as well.

After the heat gun is the only paint stripper that actually works... MC. However, since almost all the paint is gone from the heat gun you don't need that much MC at all, and you don't have to leave it all that long. After that comes an alcohol and "after wash" mix with a plastic brush and steel wool.

( Always wearing my P100 half face mask of course! )
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 569
Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is one technique that is most important when using a heat gun!

Catching something on fire is inevitable eventually, when using one. We do not advocate using a heat gun on trim or window parts still on the house.

However we do use heat removing paint on trim and window parts in our shop. And we have a spray water bottle next to us while we work. (for those inevitable flare-ups. Inevitable is the "key Word Here".

Technique! Technique! Technique!

Life is good!

Steve S
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mrsludge



Joined: 28 Jan 2009
Posts: 8
Location: GA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I'd subscribed to the topic, but I didn't see a lot of the discussion until much later.

I don't have the perfect lead-safe workspace, the heating/stripping gear, or a good respirator. With that in mind, I dropped off my first set of sashes with the stripping/refinishing shop this week. They're going to do a solvent dip first and then a cold dip in caustic, followed by acid to neutralize.

I'm playing it by ear. The first set of sashes, with all the coats of water-based stripper took me weeks and weeks to get ready. I could have these back by the end of the week, having taken them out last Sunday.

I had a pretty easy time steaming out the putty to remove the glass. Just took 3hr.s or so for both sashes. And steaming the paint off the flats would be easy, it's just the profile on the mullions inside where I didn't come up with a way that didn't scratch the wood pretty badly.

If it doesn't tear them up, I'll keep going that way. The time savings, plus greatly-reduced dealing with the lead paint waste, make it worth the $100 or so per pair of sashes.
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john



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:49 pm    Post subject: The Brown Ooze ! Reply with quote

Quote:
dip the sash in caustic, followed by acid to neutralize.


I have seen this become a big mistake, more like a disaster in several cases. with all the joints and nooks and crannies in sashes, it is difficult to impossible to effectively neutralize the caustic chemicals. After glazing, painting and installation, the moisture content of the wood goes back up to normal levels and the remaining caustic seeps back out at the joints, damaging the paint film right where protection from moisture is most needed, more water gets in and the caustic starts eating away at the wood causing "The Brown Ooze". Believe me, you don't want that in your sashes, especially down South where the wet and humid season is so long. On one project in Louisiana they had to replace ALL of their original sashes to solve the problem.

Over the years I have been called to solve problems on three projects where alkaline chemical stripper was used on windows and exterior woodwork. The chemical was not (and in my estimation could not have been) effectively neutralized because of all the joints, nooks and crannies that the alkaline material gets trapped in. The result was complete failure of the new paint film at nearly all joints, nooks and crannies. Even after complete paint removal and re-neutralization the new paint film failed again. The only effective recovery would have been to completely disassemble all the wood parts and neutralize the surfaces of each part. In extreme cases the alkaline chemical attacks and dissolves the lignin component of the wood, migrating right through the wood in pockets reaching the opposite side of the wood and dribbling out with an effect we have come to call "The Brown Ooze."

I now routinely recommend against any alkaline paint stripping on exterior woodwork, especially including windows.

One case was at a state governor's mansion. Another was at an important historic house in Louisiana. I have heard of several other similar cases.

It's interesting to note that at the Garfield House (National Parks historic site in Ohio) that the exterior paint was removed with alkaline type chemicals and the place had to be repainted just five years later. Park Service staff onsite report that chemical stripping is thought to be the cause of premature paint failure with wind driven rain and symptoms of "dripping rusty brown colored stuff" in some high-moisture situations. It's surprising to note that Dumond Chemical promotes the use of their alkaline type chemical stripper on this project at their website.

(I am not saying that any particular product is bad. I am saying that I have found alkaline chemical stripping on window sashes and wood exteriors to be problematic. It is up to us to select products that give desired results without causing damage and costly mistakes.)

We never use caustic chemical paint removal on exterior woodwork or windows. There are effective alternatives: solvent chemical, steam, hot air gun, etc.

Quote:
it's just the profile on the mullions inside where I didn't come up with a way that didn't scratch the wood pretty badly.


This discussion has a link to a recording of a live video conference that shows how to remove the paint on the moulded profile, with a profiled scraper:
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=987

Also, Dave Bowers shows his technique in this video:
http://blip.tv/file/337690/
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 569
Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We offer homeowners many different levels of repair on window sashes. We think its important for those homeowners that want to, to be able to do as much work as they can themselves.

mrsludge
It would be great if you contacted one or two restorers in your area to get a price on stripping paint on your sashes with heat or steam. This would give you an additional option.


Steve S
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sswiat



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 231
Location: Cambria, New York

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just reviewing this post again and the question still lingers in my mind, will stripping with MC cause any problems down the road with the sash?
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Scott S



Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Orlando, Florida

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:55 pm    Post subject: Brown Ooze in action Reply with quote

My company fell pray to the "Brown Ooze" it would appear. Here's an unfortunate example of some windows we're working on. This is in Central Florida only 2 months after a full restoration and reinstall. Strangely, the windows on the sunny south side of the house are fairing much better. The ones on the north side are all beginning to do this.

I noticed a little bit of yellow liquid on the windows a couple weeks after reinstalling them, but now it's turned into this mess. We took them to an alkaline dip tank. After dipping they "neutralized" and rinsed them thoroughly. We then let them dry for a few days until the moisture content returned to normal levels. Then one coat of oil-based primer (Kilz exterior), followed by Sarco Type-M putty and 2 coats of acrylic paint.

Not sure how we'll fix this. I'm going to try a few different options like injecting more neutralizer into the muntin joints and then prime with a shellac based primer and see what results I get. Just hoping the client will be open to letting me experiment before I go build 32 new sashes for free.





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