Problems (& Solutions) with Allback linseed paint
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jefinch



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Elverson, PA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what happened to the attachment yesterday. I tried again this morning and now I couldn't get the browse button to function. I'll go ahead and post this and then give it a fresh try.

I think the bottom line on all this at this point is that even if the linseed paint per se is not causing the problem there is enough evidence with side-by-side examples of non-linseed paint to say the following. Regardless of the cause, the problems are only showing up where linseed paint is used. As Jade pointed out the mildew is feeding on something. My colleague suggested that possibly with the slow dry time there was opportunity for spores/organic matter to adhere to the curing paint surface. But if it's the spores that are adhereing on what are they feeding? And that still doesn't explain a wall that has noticeable differences in problems at different ends. There may be a way to prevent the problems from occurring on linseed paint. But until it can be confirmed what those ways are, the problems we have been experiencing and the lack of truly responsive diagnostic answers are deal breakers as far as continued use of the paint for the location where I work. Just yesterday I was contacted by another person in our organization who was very interested in using the paint. I had directed him to this forum and he was calling to confirm that I was now saying it's too much of a gamble without more testing and answers.
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michwindows



Joined: 28 Mar 2009
Posts: 29
Location: Grand Rapids Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been following this discussion a bit. You all might find this link an interesting read.

www.calcitesunoil.com/UnrefinedFlaxOil.html

The author is try to recrate paint from the "old masters". Picture painting. I guess they used linseed oil paints...
Anyways...
The author has done some testing on Allback's boiled and purified linseed oil to see if it is "pure" enough.

Let me know what you think.
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jefinch



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Elverson, PA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michwindows wrote:
www.calcitesunoil.com/UnrefinedFlaxOil.html[/url]

This is one of the links that Jade posted earlier in the discussion. I think this guy's testing indicates that the Allback oil is not sterilized in an ultimate sense. It may be sterilized as compared to the boiled oil available at your local paint store but it looks like there is still at least a small amount of "food" remaining in the oil on which mildew can feed.
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Louis



Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 2
Location: San Diego, California , USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello to Mr Leeke and friends. My name is Louis, and I am an artist. My website , www.calcitesunoil.com , was mentioned on this site and I would like to comment on the cleansing of FLAX OIL. [I quote from the recent post=I think this guy's testing indicates that the Allback oil is not sterilized in an ultimate sense. It may be sterilized as compared to the boiled oil available at your local paint store but it looks like there is still at least a small amount of "food" remaining in the oil on which mildew can feed.]

As an artist, Oil painter, my research and studies include what is known as archival permanence of Fine Art oil paintings. The gold standard may be the 14-15th century northern European paintings of the Flemish masters, such as the Van Eyck brothers. Their oil paintings, using FLAX oil are almost 600 years old and in an extraordinary state of preservation.

I do not put down paint used for 'house painting', nor do I compare painting a house to a Fine art painting. Each paint serves a very different purpose and neither one is more important than the other - just different.

My studies have shown- as photos on my site of the DARKENING of FLAX oil show = that the very most important requirement when using FLAX oil if permanence is desired, is that as much of the mucilage must be removed, as well as all of the particulate resulting from the pressing/extraction of the oil ... [ As you all know, Linseed oil and Flax oil are from the same flax seed, but each is processed differently for the consumer- I can elaborate more on that subject later, or you can read a detailed account on my site].

When pressed, the oil is full of particulate. Allowing the oil to stand still for periods of time, with some EXTREMELY low heat to thin the oil, will cause it to settle. The mucilage is another matter. Mucilage in this FLAX oil is one of natures true miracles. I am not a chemist, nor do I have a laboratory. But, as a student of the Old Masters' paintings, processes and materials, [ who also did not have laboratories], I come to the same conclusions they reached. That, the mucilage is INVISIBLE to the unaided eye, but is completely held in suspension with the raw oil. I can deduce from simple experiments using heat or cold, that it is there. Also, the slow drying of flax/linseed oil [without any metallic driers] is caused by this mucilage in great part, not just by not having oxdized sufficiently. The mucilage is complex, and is partly aqueous and partly oleaginous.

The Old Masters treatises and manuscripts show how hard they struggled over this issue of REMOVING the mucilage. Its clear that through simple observation, the oil wll darken to a brown umber if the mucilage is not removed. Just like a beautiful bright yellow bannana will become black, through decay and fermentation, so too, the mucilage in the oil. The decay is caused by the moisture- aqueous content- of that mucilage.

You would be surprized at the numerous methods devised and tried, by the old alchemists, to remove the mucilage. Urine, dirt, ashes, water, snow, clays, eggs, and much much more was tried. The Van Eycks did not leave us a book with their method- or- it did not survice. But, in 1649, the Spaniard, Francisco Pacheco's book was posthumously published [ his death was incorrectly listed as 1654 for years- until his death cert. was located]. Pacheco was the teacher of the great Spanish painter Diego Velazquez, one of history's greatest masters of oil painting and whose dominent oil was FLAX oil.

Pacheco's book gives directions for cleansing the raw cold pressed UNREFINED FLAX oil. I'm not trying to sell you my book, but the extensive study is in it. Suffice to say, he used alcoholic liquor and the Lavender flower. This flower contains a natural solvent, commonly called by its ancient name as SPIKE OIL. Its not an oil, but a volatile solvent. Together by a unique procedure, they do cause separation, and flocculation of the aqueous mucilage, resulting in a crystaline transparent flax oil.

My book concentrates on elimination of all hazardous solvents, resins, varnishes and driers from oil painting for artists for reasons of safety--ad to guarantee permanence. Solvents and driers are toxic and cause great harm to artists who work indoors. The cleansed flax oi --as cleansed --remains a slow drying oil as flax oil is by nature. BUT..the good news is that by use of continuous gentle heat over 11 days at 115f on an electric stove plate, in an open container, with daily stirring , it becomes a fast drying oil, that in fine art oil painting, dries hard within 30 hours.

For the moment, I will stop this lengthy response, and if queried, I can enlarge on it as there is much more to say. For the moment, I invite you to rerad my website
Sinceely-Louis
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2972
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louis:

Thank you so much for your detailed explanations.

I was an artist in my youth and studied art in school, learning about how to prepare linseed oil for artistic painting. I also learn this from my father who was also a artist when young in the early 20th century.

What you say fits what I learned then and since, studying modern paint chemistry from practical point of view, restoring and painting old buildings. This gives me great confidence in what you say, and it's clear we can learn from you and apply that to our building work.

I have learned in school and from decades of practical work painting on buildings that the longer the oil takes to dry (or cure, or polymerize) the more durable it is over the long-term service life. There seems to be a fundamentally different end material, with the oil molecule "knitting" together in a different way that if the drying is fast, with metalic driers, etc. (While I have studied organic chemistry a little to understand paint chemistry better, I am not a chemist either)

Thanks for sharing what you know here and at your website.

Feel free to promote your book here.

_________________
John

by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
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rosssams



Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Posts: 3
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mildew and moisture
Iíve had a hunt around the internet looking for problems of mildew associated with linseed oil. It seems a common (and from time to time near histerical) concern but only an occasional complaint. Those with the greatest experience often make the simple point that you wonít have mildew growing on linseed oil applied to timber indoors. It just isnít damp enough. All the specific complaints concern the external use of oil finishes: garden furniture, boats, log cabins.

Log cabins in North America are of especial interest in this matter because linseed oil finishes have been specifically recommended in the past. Indeed, as I mentioned in my last post, my only contact in Scotland who uses linseed oil extensively as an external timber finish is someone who builds log cabins. I have lifted this comment from a forum posted by Charis Babcock of Sashco in Connecticut(?), a company that specialises in alkyd resin stains/coatings for log cabins and timber houses.

Quote:
It is true that many stains, both oil- and water-based, are removing some of the mildewcide additives due to government regulation; however, it is also true that [in] the manufacturing process oils (and there are many - linseed is just one) are chemically altered to the point that they are no longer a food-source for fungi. Add mildewcides and you have a pretty safe starting point. We at Sashco agree with most out there - if you are in a high-humidity area, an additional mildewcide is always prudent. In addition, it is always good practice to check your wood's moisture content level with a moisture meter prior to staining, and this is especially important in high-humidity locations. Open checks and cracks can let in more water than you might think and alter the moisture content considerably. You can pick up a moisture meter at most any hardware store. I'd say 9 times out of 10, mold and mildew problems are the result of wood that is too wet, so controlling this aspect is going to help control other issues, too.


And this is something you should do: get a moisture meter. The Allbacks themselves recommend that the timber should have no higher a moisture reading than 17% when using linseed oil paint. Now, 17% is not all that high Ė typical of air-dried timber. Kiln-dried timber is round about 10%. It would be great if people would measure the moisture levels of their linseed-oil-coated timber suffering mildew and sent the info to an expert interested in the problem. Then we would have some good empirical evidence to work with.

But, as Charis says, if by checking the moisture content you discover that the mildew is a sign of too much water in your timbers, you are going to catch other problems early on, perhaps even nip some nasty rot in the bud. It may even be that mildew on linseed oil could be a new early warning system for detecting conditions for wood rot!

I'm not sufficiently interested in your specific case of mildew to spend any time looking at your report of the differential fungal growth on various walls to see if they look like obvious building problems of leaks, water collection and penetration, or creeping damp. I assume you will have spotted any obvious signs of excessive moisture by now. But localised problems of mildew is usually a telltale sign of marked differences in moisture levels. In the log cabin literature, it is clear that there is commonly a different amount of fungal growth on the top and bottom face of each horizontal log. Ditto ship-lap siding, where the bottom half of each board is wetter than the top half, for obvious reasons.

The mildew really can't be growing without moisture. The question remains, is it growing unexpectedly where the moisture is only a tiny bit higher than you would expect as normal or, heaven help us, where the moisture levels are normal.

Given that people reading this thread are now planning to abandon Allback linseed oil paint given the concerns raised in it, I believe there is almost a moral imperative that you check whether tasty linseed food deserves the blame or whether soggy timbers are the real culprit.
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for bringing the log cabin experience into this discussion.


Quote:
people reading this thread are now planning to abandon Allback linseed oil paint


I'm not planning to abandon Allback paint. I'm planning to continue my side-by-side comparison field testing of it, and Jeff, who brought the mildew case forward has said he has continuing interest in the paint.

Anyone abandoning Allback paint because of this discussion is missing the point, which is to learn how and when to use Allback paint.

I think the moral issues of our work and material choices should be discussed.

I think this discussion supports the moral imperative quite nicely. We are morally bound to report our experience with this paint (and all the products, materials and methods we use) to each other and the public at large. We each do the best we can in this sharing. Anyone is welcome to participate, including the maker of the paint. It is a very interesting case, and extraordinarily suitable for this sort of discussion, since the buildings are publicly owned and available for pubic access. Anyone can go there and examine the buildings and paint, delve into the records of the case, etc., including the makers of the paint.

I'm reminded of an old friend, Phil Johnson, who operated a water-powered grist mill in the 1970s and 80s. He ground grain for several local farmers and families, many of them organic farmers. Occasionally he would get weevils or other bugs in the grain. Of course, commercial millers put chemicals in the grain and flour to keep the bugs at bay. But, Phil would say, "I'd rather see or even eat a weevil that eat poisonous chemicals." I always thought that made a lot of practical sense.

Would I rather deal with mildew on some exterior paint projects, than know that chemicals in the other paint I could use are damaging the health of me, my family, my workers, or anyone somewhere else in the world where those chemicals are made and their byproducts are disposed of? I'm beginning to think my own moral stand would be with paint that is made with fewer poisonous chemicals. When I use it I can make arrangements to assume the costs of added labor or dealing with the occasional case where mildew becomes a problem, until I learn how to avoid using it where mildew will crop up.

John (gets off the soap box now) Leeke


Last edited by johnleeke on Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Louis



Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 2
Location: San Diego, California , USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:03 pm    Post subject: ALLBACK OIL and Fine Art Oil Painting Reply with quote

Hello John and other readers.
[John said: I was an artist in my youth and studied art in school, learning about how to prepare linseed oil for artistic painting. I also learn this from my father who was also a artist when young in the early 20th century. ]

Thank you for opening the window to this important aspect of FLAX oil. In my last post, I commented on the importance of removing the Mucilage from the oil, as over time, it will ferment, decay and turn the oil dark umber brown. Flax/Linseed oil when cured...is not waterproof. Science shows it absorbs moisture from the air in humid weather, and releases it in dry weather. This is how the moisture gets into the oil, to make contact with the mucilage, and causes its damage.

I agree with John. This is not a criticism of ALLBACKs oil. I'm certain it is of the highest quality. I read the post saying the wood must be dry also. Yes its true. In Fine Art oil painting also, the support [ canvas or wood] must be sealed BEFORE applying the oil paint.

John's comment of his father and of his own learning of use of Fine Art linseed oil brings this to the table. Artists suffered at the onset of the Industrial era of the 19th century. Lost were the oral traditions of the Old Masters' studio knowledge. Flax seeds wre now pressed and treated in various ways to extract ALL the oil. Use of solvens and steam heat made sure all the oil was obtained. The Old Masters lost 40% of the oil , as it stuck to the particulate [ husk mash]. Then the Industrialists bent on profits [ which I do not criticize per se] needed a FAST EFECTIVE way to remove the slow drying mucilage filled with moisture. LYE chemicals did just that. It quickly cleansed the oil..but the downside was that it impacted the stability, durabilit, pliability and permance of the oil y also removing the fatty acids. Any academic source will provide the complexity of these fatty acids in cold pressed FLAX oil.

Today... the oil , pressed from the same FLAX seed is given two names...depending on who uses and buys it [ labeling laws apply]. FLAX OIL is untreated by any chemicals and its the same oil used by the Old Masters. But oil for industry , under which ART supplies come under ...are labeled LINSEED OIL. Its been processed, treated, denuded.

For industry , Allback doesnt] want house paint that will last 600 years- the market would be slow. Paint it once and forget it. Moden life and industry profits are designed to require REUSE of a product. Its good for the economy. But we want the Fine Art paintings to last for hundreds of years.

John. Thanks for allowing me to comment on my book. Im 66 years old, and learned to Fine Art oil paint from books. The method taught then [ 1958] and still today is the same. Its the same method since the 19th Industrial era using lye cleansed alkali refined oil. It requires use of solvents and driers to help dry up that slow ALKALI REFINED linseed oil. Theophilus in the 11th century lamented about how slow the draying of flax oil was- nothing new.

The magic of the non processed UNREFINED oil is that it contains all its fatty acids and Iodine, and..then if...allowed to polymerize , it becomes a naturally fast drying [30 hours] oil without additions of metallic driers. The Van Eycks of the 13-14th centurys found this out.

In conclusion. Allback flax oil is grown in a recognized superior geographical region of the world for flax plants. HOW they process it is the question. BOILED oil that they sell is degraded oil for Fine Art purposes where the oil is expected to last for centuries--but not for house painting that is expected to last 50 years . Flax oil boils at 343 degrees centigrade/celsius. A prominent academic source states Flax Linseed oil begins decomposition at 230 to 236 degrees centigrade. For house painting thats OK.

Allback also sells a PURIFIED oil. Thats the oil Im questioning on my website, as I know NOT TO USE the boiled oil for Fine Art painting. I have written to the USA rep of Allback, asking to WHAT temperature their 'Purified' oil is heated to. They will NOT tell me.

Thanks John, I hope this helps--Louis
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jefinch



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Elverson, PA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rosssams wrote:
Mildew and moisture
I'm not sufficiently interested in your specific case of mildew to spend any time looking at your report of the differential fungal growth on various walls to see if they look like obvious building problems ... But localised problems of mildew is usually a telltale sign of marked differences in moisture levels. In the log cabin literature, it is clear that there is commonly a different amount of fungal growth on the top and bottom face of each horizontal log. Ditto ship-lap siding, where the bottom half of each board is wetter than the top half, for obvious reasons.


Unfortunately the manufacturer seems also insufficiently interested in this particular problem. And also unfortunately our evidence is not so clear-cut as to be so consistent as being always in a common location or situation. Such as a single vertical board that has a section of significant problem and another section that has noticeably lesser issues. And my colleague's microscopic analysis of his problem showed that at least in his particular case the mildew was not growing on the substrate but on the outer surface of the paint itself.

Before posting here I too made an internet search for 'problems with linseed paint' but unlike you found almost nothing except links to Allback paint web sites referencing the lack of problems with their product. Curiously one of the links I visited contained a picture of a building painted with acrylic paint that was failing and shown as an example of why on should choose Allback Linseed Paint. It looked very similar to a building at my site that was painted with linseed paint. Apparently I didn't try enough variety of search phrases. I want to wholly avoid hysterics, which is exactly why posted here knowing that this is an unbiased source for rational discussion in the pursuit of answers. Unfortunately I don't have the time and resources to pursue as sophisticated an analysis as is apparently needed to solve this.
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jefinch



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Elverson, PA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: ALLBACK OIL and Fine Art Oil Painting Reply with quote

Louis wrote:
In my last post, I commented on the importance of removing the Mucilage from the oil, as over time, it will ferment, decay and turn the oil dark umber brown. Flax/Linseed oil when cured...is not waterproof. Science shows it absorbs moisture from the air in humid weather, and releases it in dry weather. This is how the moisture gets into the oil, to make contact with the mucilage, and causes its damage.


Two comments here. Some of what I'm seeing at my site could be explained by your latter description of the post-painting process. My problem is that the evidence isn't wholly pointing to the paint being fully at fault. Your former comment about darkening is apropos to my experience with both the mildew issue as well as another different one. I am aware of the issue of darkening with linseed oils so wasn't totally surprised when the white linseed paint I applied on some ceiling woodwork in a small water closet yellowed to almost a tan color (this room has no window and gets only intermittent artificial light). Your statement indicates that it's the decay of the mucilage that causes this darkening. With that in mind I think it's another indication that the Allback product isn't sterilized to the point at which I would agree with the term sterilized.

However, taking that thought to a logical conclusion and to take something of the side of the paint manufacturer, that term, of necessity I would think, must be relative. As illustration, a bandage is termed to be sterile but is it possible for such a commercial product to be 100% free of all impurities? It may be that it is sufficiently pure to be considered safe for use on an open wound and to have a reasonable expectation that nothing in it will promote infection. Similarly Allback's oils, apparently having at least some mucilage remaining, may be extremely pure and sterile as compared to most other linseed oils. I may have incorrectly inferred by their statements of being problem (mildew?) free that it wasn't possible to have mildew growth with the product. And since the problems are only occurring on areas painted with linseed paint when adjacent acrylic-painted surfaces show no problems it sent me looking for answers on why.
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

first off, thanks ross and louis for registering and sharing your knowledge.

louis mentioned "50 year paint".

we should be so lucky!

as i'm sure you're aware, if you have any interest in architecture, the current paint manufacturers in the USA are content to sell us 10-15 year paint, and when we get disgusted with that, herd us toward plastic materials as an alternative to wood.

in effect trying to tell us that the broken egg is the chicken's fault.

if all of this turns into us getting readily available 30 year paint, we'll be thrilled.

our issues are not dissimilar from yours, as you'll see if you dig around a bit, in that the building materials created from white lead, linseed oil, pine-sap derived turpentine, and other such things that old timers took for granted isn't always easy to recreate, after all, "common" knowledge is often the knowledge that gets lost, since no one bothers to write it down ;).
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 568
Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be happy with a consistantly good paint that lasts 15 years.

The acceptance of any level quality of paint is really only relative to the cost to apply and maintain it.

I will buy American before albeck or whatever product that is made across the big waters. I don't even think that American made paints are inferior to others, as evidenced by the facts and questions hear about Albecks products.

Obviously Linsead oil paint is supposed to be good as long as long as you follow a seemingly intricate and immensely pricise regiment of quality control standards.

In other words the quality of the finished product depends on the painter.
Ha! Ha! I will accept that responsibility but spend a lot less than $million dollars a gallon.

Steve S
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Obviously Linseed oil paint is supposed to be good as long as long as you follow a seemingly intricate and immensely precise regiment of quality control standards.


This is true for any paint, the methods, procedure, and techniques provide the quality that leads to durability. The paint itself has little to do with it--not what the manufacturers want you to know.

Quote:
The acceptance of any level quality of paint is really only relative to the cost to apply and maintain it...In other words the quality of the finished product depends on the painter.


Exactly my point. 95% to 99% of the success of any paint has to do with preparation, application and maintenance. Which paint product has very little to do with it. Here's the whole explanation of that in a conference replay:

http://flash.kmi.open.ac.uk:8080/fm/index.php?pwd=2925ce-4845

Quote:
I will buy American before Allback or whatever product that is made across the big waters.


It is not really accurate to think anything is environmentally friendly when it is hauled half-way around the world with petro-chemical fuel. If Allback paint was made here in north America that would be of less concern.

_________________
John

by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought


Last edited by johnleeke on Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jefinch



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Elverson, PA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="johnleeke"]
Quote:

It is not really accurate to think anything is environmentally friendly when it is hauled half-way around the world with petro-chemical fuel. If Allback paint was made here in north America that would be of less concern.


That reminds me. Soren did tell me a while back that the ultimate plan is to make the paints here. I don't recall if he had any idea of time frame. As to price, the cost of any paint is such a small portion of any big paint job. I'm willing to pay the price if I can get the results and longevity I want. I'd even buy quarts of exterior alkyd if I was convinced that was the best product for the job. I corresponded today with a person who, mostly on my recommendation, had included linseed paint in a specification package and now will probably remove it.
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it a matter of common sense that when a producer of a product and suppliers of services, offer some in depth explanation as to why their product is 300-400% higher in cost than their nearest competitor.

Its up to us, before we give tons of money to anyone to ask some pretty explicit questions of how they justify their prices, especially when its someone accros the big waters, but certainly not limited to them.
We should be very cautious and suspicious prior to handing over good money for such high priced goods and services.

Just cuz a product is made overseas doesn't make it an excellent product.

The idea of linsead oil paint seems good and maybe it is, but again the secret to its success (if the quality can't be verified and so far it can't) lays with the surface preparation of what's being painted.

And if we take care to provide the best possible surface prep, the use of American paints will last substantialy longer than the average.

I personally think expecting any surface to support a 50 year lasting paint is a dream, let alone expecting the paint itself to last as long. We are buying into the no maintenance and lasts forever marketing scheme again, similar to how vinyl siding. (lasts forevery, all you do is wash it once in awhile) Ha! Ha!

For practical reasons 15 years is acceptable for a paint job and American paints will last that long with proper surface prep and maintenance.

No I don't work for an American paint company,

Steve S
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