Problems (& Solutions) with Allback linseed paint
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jefinch



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Elverson, PA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sschoberg wrote:
I personally think expecting any surface to support a 50 year lasting paint is a dream, let alone expecting the paint itself to last as long. We are buying into the no maintenance and lasts forever marketing scheme again, similar to how vinyl siding. (lasts forevery, all you do is wash it once in awhile) Ha! Ha!


I was sufficiently convinced of the value of Allback Paint to give it a try. Starting with smaller projects and when those seemed successful eventually specifying them for larger projects. It appears now that some of what I considered technical information and product support was marketing hype. I don't recall the '50 year' phrase in the beginning and would have doubted it but the 14 year cycle between repaints with only a washing and oil reapplication in the middle was an attractive option. One of the biggest selling points for me in spec'ing it for projects was that I have had problems getting painters to sufficiently prep where bare wood has turned gray. The linseed paint has proven itself in that aspect with no failure even with no preparation.

Back when I was doing paint jobs I used to do a super prep job and would get 10-15 years out of a job even when I was putting latex paint over 100+ years of old oil paint. I kept seeing the phrase, "maintain with the linseed soap," but assumed that was the expected maintenance at the 7 year point. I always ask, what does 'Lifetime (or whatever) Guarantee' mean, who is supporing the guarantee and what will be the adjustment in case of a claim. I guess I wasn't as concerned about such things with the linseed paint based on a 7-14 year life cycle. It looks now like the maintenance with the soap may be an annual ritual at least in some cases. And Soren seemed to suggest that that was an easy task and a small price to pay for such a product that wasn't going to fail.

I visited the Allback web site yesterday just to poke around again and came across the claim that basically stated that one would not have the exact problem with these paints that we are experiencing. The prep regimine that is now being suggested is much more involved than the one originally specified and which we followed. The water-borne shellac is now listed as an interior/exterior primer. It is supposed to seal porus surfaces on the interior such as plaster and drywall but now we're led to believe that there is insufficient shellac content so it can be used as an exterior primer but won't significantly inhibit the absorbtion properties of the paint. And what is the purpose of this primer on the outside? To help create a barrier between the substrate and potential mildew growth? I thought that was one of the negatives of acrylic paints. Maybe we ask too many questions and expect too much logic.
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Ingalls DeMars Paint



Joined: 08 Oct 2008
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Location: CT

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shellac as an ext. primer? That there is a problem. It is anhydrous. It absorbs water, even from the air. Then breaks down.
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree, i would not use shellac on anything exterior, even as a sealer.

there are plenty of oil based sealer options that the linseed oil will stick to nicely.

i can see why they would recommend it on interior surfaces. shellac sticks to any and everything, and can be used as a barrier coat between incompatible finishes. but it melts with so much as very slight heat, i wouldn't even think of using it outside.
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Historicdoor



Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 94
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right about the shellac; so why pray tell, is it recommended by John (and used throughout Europe for decades) to seal the glass pockets prior to glazing? [I asked this question when I first joined the Forum discussions back in April.] Does covering the shellac with glazing make it an "interior application"?

I never have understood this. I'm thinking pine tar to seal the glass pockets as opposed to shellac. But John I believe reported that there is no adverse impact to using the shellac to seal the glass pockets prior to glazing. But the point is not the need to seal the glass pocket...that is certainly critical. The question is the issue of the shellac.

What am I missing here?

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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

because in that application it's fast drying/fast curing, and a barrier to the oil in the putty. both of which are good things.

in the case of oil paints, they fail when the oil is gone, and there's nothing left for the pigment layer to hold on to. so, i see no reason to use shellac instead of more of the oil. the more oil you get in the wood, the longer it would seem that the paint will last. putting that shellac barrier on there, i think, would effectively limit the amount of oil the wood can absorb, thereby shortening the life of the paint.

as thin as siding typically is, i would think you should be able to completely saturate the boards with linseed oil, if you were using a linseed oil paint.
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How could you completely saturate any given board with oil?

Like it or not I do not have an endless amount of time to paint a product. If I'm to make money I need a consistant time line for each process I do.

At the same time a need to produce a consistantly good quality product to continue to stay in business.

I'm not caring too much what I use on the glass rabbit to slow the drying out of the putty. Unless of course I know how long a given product will extend putty life. Then I can make a decision on what to use, based on what I get from it.

Looks to me like its a guess.

Steve S
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jefinch



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Elverson, PA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to the shellac issue, I specifically questioned Soren about this one time and suggested oil might be a better product for the window glazing rabets. He said that much experimentation had been done in Sweden and that shellac had proven to be superior. He also said to be careful and only use the shellac on the rabets themselves and not on the exposed edge of the muntin, agreeing with our contention that the life cycle of shellac was shorter than that of the linseed paint.

In another application I was doing at home I was using Kilz as an interior primer on some window sashes that I was restoring on my enclosed back porch. He advised me against this due to Kilz being a moisture barrier. Now he is telling us to use shellac as an exterior primer under the linseed paint. He specifically did say to me that "there really isn't all that much shellac in the exterior primer." I hypothesize that the borax and other ingredients in the primer are what they are banking on to inhibit mildew but it sure seems counterintuitive both from my past understanding of correct products/procedures and information that has come from the Allback representative.
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jefinch



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
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Location: Elverson, PA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last week I decided the time had come to go back through my correspondence and memory and inform anybody with whom I had had conversation/correspondence with regarding linseed paint as to my current situation. One of those people was an experienced craftsman who works at a different site in the same organization as I. In the back of my mind I've had 'condensation' lurking as a possible contributing culprit. My colleague took on the challenge and here's what he sent to me yesterday.

[quote=]The photos you posted in the forum show some interesting patterns of disruption in the finish due to fungal attack and I think the fact that there is such a select pattern (ie prominent growth adjacent to no growth in the same board!) shows that there is nothing inherant in the paint itself that is directly promoting the growth -- otherwise, you'd find the same growth pattern throughout the job or throughout the building, or at least throughout the same elevation.

I think that there may be something happening with condensation occurring during the initial cure -- the photo showing the side of the building with half-mildew where (as "Jade" pointed out) the underlying frame & diagonal bracing are visible -- that would indicate that the more massive areas (near where the column and braces are in the wall) cooled down less rapidly than the areas with a void within the wall, and therefore did not form as much condensation on one particular cool evening when they were freshly painted. Likewise, the metal cellar door would have cooled down very rapidly, and may have formed condensation on the surface of the uncured paint. It seems like it was a one-time cycle of cooling/warming that altered the surface of the paint before it was cured, and I am basing this wild speculation on the fact that you said the painting was being done late in the season. It's a stretch, but is it possible that the weather on the day that the problem locations were painted may have something to do with the mildew formation? I have been looking into this possibility and the only feasible explainations I can muster are:

1) micro-fine cracks formed on the painted surface which allow spores an opportunity to reside long enough to grow. or,
2) The surface film was tacky long enough to collect dirt and debris that could promote growth or,
3) the uncured linseed oil surface that was wetted by condensation created a conversion layer (something that is not linoxin) that allows abundant, rapid mildew growth.

What to do from here? You could probably wipe the affected area with bleach-water and make the stain go away, but it probably wouldn't disappear completely and might come back. The contractor might have to come back and repaint in the interest of proper performance of their contract, but if they followed mfrs. instructions and properly applied the product that you recommended, then are they really to blame? Allback should offer to step in and make this one right. The "fix" might cost them a few thousand bucks but in the end they stand to lose the trust of many in the preservation community -- right at a time when new laws and widespread attitudes support their market niche.[/quote]

Here's my response:
[quote=]Thanks for your excellent observations. It's this type of input for which I was looking when I got the discussion started at HHW. I agree that most indications are that the problem lies with more than just the paint itself. One alternate would be that of a difference between cans of paint. The contractor did perceive that there was a difference in some cases but that wouldn't necessarily result in what we're seeing. The bottom line from a practical standpoint is that elements painted with modern alkyd/acrylic paints are not having the same problems and the Allback web site specifically states that this type of problem will not occur with their paints. It's just too curious that they have issued new preparation guidelines subsequent to my raising of this issue.

I have been dealing with this as something of a sidebar with my other duties. I've now put in probably +/-2 to 3 day's worth of time in correspondence and posting. But I haven't really stopped and given it the same analysis as you. Unfortunately my daily logs aren't' specific enough to know what the conditions were on the days when each section was done. I suspect this would help us with our diagnosis. But even if the condensation is at fault, what we did was specifically within what was allowed. I specifically asked the distributor about painting in cold weather and he said it was OK, just to expect a longer cure time.

Other than holding off on further use of the products the where we go question is the current one. The state has experimented with washing with D2 and I believe that they experienced some regrowth. In an interior application where a different type of failure had occurred with their interior primer, Soren, the distributor, specifically said I should not use a bleach solution. In fact this was one of the first indications that I wasn't getting good technical responses because he said the bleach solution was definitely to blame for the failure, yet some of the failing areas hadn't been washed with the solution. The contractor (Dave of Diamond Quality...has done/is doing work at ROVA) and I had a lengthy discussion. He is willing to do some experimentation but I doubt we'll get a full repaint. All I wanted from Allback was straight answers and not marketing hype. A site visit and help in analyzing what went wrong would have shown good faith and excellent customer service. The Allbacks themselves specifically declined to even enter into the HHW discussion. Soren did send me a litre of the new linseed soap with borax but it'll take a whole lot more than that to clean all the buildings that are having problems. I had hoped for more and have been disappointed especially considering that I had been a willing proponent of the products. I will probably still use this paint on my own house in NY if I ever get back to that part of the project but no way will I stick out my neck in a professional sense until I am convinced of what went wrong and how it can be prevented in the future.[quote]
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Off topic, but interesting:

Quote:
You are right about the shellac; so why pray tell, is it recommended by John (and used throughout Europe for decades) to seal the glass pockets prior to glazing? [I asked this question when I first joined the Forum discussions back in April.] Does covering the shellac with glazing make it an "interior application"?

I never have understood this. I'm thinking pine tar to seal the glass pockets as opposed to shellac. But John I believe reported that there is no adverse impact to using the shellac to seal the glass pockets prior to glazing. But the point is not the need to seal the glass pocket...that is certainly critical. The question is the issue of the shellac.


I assume that "glass pocket" = "glazing rabbet".

Quote:
Does covering the shellac with glazing make it an "interior application"?


No, all the materials in the glazing rabbet (primer or shellac, putty, glass, paint) are an exterior application. The exterior side of the sash is exposed to the exterior weather.

I have done one test using shellac on one sash in the glazing rabbet, as part of testing the entire Swedish/Allback window sash paint and glazing procedure. The test includes a typical American sash and glazing procedure that has the typical alkyd oil-based primer in the glazing dado.

I do not recommend shellac in glazing dadoes, and have never used it in production.

Shellac, as I know it, cannot be counted on for durability in high moisture situations, like exterior woodwork or window sash. It may work, but I have not experienced it. (That's why I'm doing the test, to get experience.)

I ran shellac in that test because it is recommended by the Allbacks, and because that particular window originally had shellac on the interior face of the sashes, and I wanted to recreate that and try it out. After 3 years the shellac finish on the interior side of the sashes has failed on horizontal surfaces and partly failed on the face of the lower rail and needs to be renewed. There is no visual evidence (such as loose putty) that the shellac in the glazing dadoes has failed.

Hope this helps clear things up.

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Last edited by johnleeke on Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Historicdoor



Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 94
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana

PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, I didn't think my post was "off topic". There was a discussion of the use of the shellac on the window sash under the glazing to keep oil in the glazing material from being absorbed into the wood. I know that the glazing material is applied as an exterior application, and since I would never use shellac in an exterior application, I was surprised to learn in earlier discussion that it was being done throughout Europe (at least that is what I understood in those spring of 2009 postings). I questioned the use of the shellac then (I thought) and understood that I was being corrected and that indeed shellac was being recommended. I was concerned about both moisture and the heat.

My comment about "interior application" in my most recent post was to try to understand how the use of the shellac could be viewed as acceptable, reasoning that perhaps if it was covered with something (i.e. glazing compound), then perhaps "the covering" would make it in the minds of whomever, an interior (and therefore acceptable) application. I didn't see how else the use of the shellac could be justified in the exterior.

That's why I asked "what am I missing".

Now I am even more confused, first because you said the question was "off topic", and second because in the third paragraph of your post you said "I do not recommend shellac in glazing dadoes", but in the last sentence of your post you said that "there is no visual evidence...that the shellac in the glazing dadoes has failed."

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I thought I understood a consensus on the acceptability of the use of shellac under glazing material in window sash among the experts on this Forum, and (against my better judgement about the properties of shellac in an exterior environment) have proceeded to use it under the Allback linseed oil paint. Seems like if there is no evidence of shellac failing in the glazing dadoes in your tests that is a good thing and ought to give a green light to its use.

I'm either really confused, evidencing my ignorance, my reading skills are getting worse with old age, or some combination of all of the above. If everybody else gets this, then I'll go off and try to figure it out myself so as not to add more confusion to the discussion. If you help me understand how my post was "off topic" though, that would be helpful...if I can't even understand why the point was "off topic" then I'm in real trouble!

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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lack of short term failure of any product in a simple short term test will not determine whether there is longevity and therefore a recommended use of it.
Sometimes I'm so eager to improve a procedure or introduce a new product that I fail to use common sense. When we institute our individual tests on whatever product, and are impressed with short term results, we need to proceed with caution and notify our customer what it is that we have changed on their product. I think many of us (including John) have said this fairly clearly in a number of discussions.

I too have had a tendancy to jump into something to quickly only to find out there's to many negatives to continue with it. Although I must admit I've been lucky more than a few times on others.
But using shellac in a glass rabbit-----never was even tempted.

Steve S
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jefinch



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
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Location: Elverson, PA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sschoberg wrote:
Sometimes I'm so eager to improve a procedure or introduce a new product that I fail to use common sense. When we institute our individual tests on whatever product, and are impressed with short term results, <snip>. Sometimes I'm so eager to improve a procedure or introduce a new product that I fail to use common sense.

In hindsight I'd say that I'm guilty here as to the use of the linseed paint. But in my defense I'd also say that the last building that was done before spec'ing for the large project, is still not showing any significant problems and the problems we're having on one building showed up less than a year after competion.

sschoberg wrote:
only to find out there's too many negatives to continue with it.

Thus my posting here and notification of anybody else with whom I had past contact regarding the product.

sschoberg wrote:
But using shellac in a glass rabbit-----never was even tempted.

I guess in going with new products there are 2 schools of thought, which are either adopted or blended. One being the old tried and true conventional processes and wisdom. The other being following the manufacturer's specifications even if they countermand the former. John's and other's experiments on a small scale are invaluable in this respect. I specifically questioned the use of shellac on the glazing rabets and was told this was the only recommended practice under the linseed putty. To do otherwise and then experience failure would mean no recourse with the manufacturer. A lot of good that's done with the paint itself. As far as I know the Allback spec's (for that time) were followed, we have failure and still have no recourse and are getting no satisfaction from the manufacturer.

The body of evidence that is building appears that we are getting a number of instructions, to use products and methods, from Allback that are counter to what most of us have been taught/done/have tested over our years of experience. Such things as linseed soap instead of bleach or something like D2 to eradicate mildew, shellac used as an overall exterior primer, etc. It may be that in certain situations there's a reason for that. But I question now if at least in some cases they aren't just trying to pull things out of a hat in an attempt to have the customer do the field experimentation for them. And if there's some sort of failure, oh well, they'll just think of something else and issue a new set of directions because apparently there's no actual guarantee behind the claims of longevity and freedom from problems so there's little financial risk to them.
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregory:

Quote:
John, I didn't think my post was "off topic".


Neither do I, your post was OK. My reply focused on 'shellac and glazing' when the topic is 'linseed oil painting' so I labeled MY message as "off topic."

Quote:
Now I am even more confused, ... because in the third paragraph of your post you said "I do not recommend shellac in glazing rabbets", but in the last sentence of your post you said that "there is no visual evidence...that the shellac in the glazing dadoes has failed."


The test is in its third year, no failure yet that can be assigned to the shellac or any other cause, so the jury is not yet in with their judgment. This is a test with no definitive results yet. The most that I could conclude so far, is that shellac in glazing rabbets is worth further testing. I'll let my test continue, and I suggest that others here in America test it as well. To actually demonstrate that shellac in glazing rabbets is generally OK to do would take 5 or 10 of us doing two or three tests each over the course of 10 or 20 years, or more. They apparently have done this over in Europe where there is a tradition of it going back a century or two. We can draw on their experience and their materials to a certain extent, but many things are different here in America, the shellac may be different, the hands, minds and hearts of the workers are definitely different. So this is why we test.

Quote:
Seems like if there is no evidence of shellac failing in the glazing dadoes in your tests that is a good thing and ought to give a green light to its use.


No green light yet. Maybe a yellow light, proceed with caution (test it out), or play it safe, for myself I'll pull over by the side of the road, maybe I'll try going through a red light in the middle of the night to see what happens, or maybe watch a few cars go through the green, yellow and red lights to see who gets a ticket and try to figure out why.

Quote:
I'm either really confused, evidencing my ignorance, my reading skills are getting worse with old age, or some combination of all of the above. If everybody else gets this, then I'll go off and try to figure it out myself so as not to add more confusion to the discussion. If you help me understand how my post was "off topic" though, that would be helpful...if I can't even understand why the point was "off topic" then I'm in real trouble!


To start off, we're all ignorant and in trouble of one sort or another. Confusion is OK, my high-school history teacher would often say, "Out of Confusion Arises True Understanding" so confusion can be good, then real learning starts.

The purpose of the forum is to discuss and arrive at understandings. Stick around. There are limitations to the written word in an online discussion forum. Feel free to give me a call 207 773-2306, and we'll sort out shellac in glazing rabbets.

(old age? don't get me started! This year I passed 60, and am coming to realize there are some things I just cannot do any more: hand-plane 500 board feet of pine boards in one day, climb a six storey scaffold that has no stairs or elevator, fix my own computer, and, perhaps, effectively moderate an online discussion forum! but, I can still find my way into and back out of the woods)

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jade



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i whole heartedly agree with the theory of testing products prior to using them on large scale projects, but isn't that the responsibility of the manufacturer? as a long time member of the cynic's club, i don't trust most people who make a lot of money selling things but neither do i have the time or inclination to wait 5, 10 or 20 years to test out a product when the ingredients and/or the manufacturing process will have surely changed in that time period...

at one time, years ago, i used ben moore paint/primer products exclusively and knew their products quite well...now they have so many 'eco', 'one-coat-no-prime', 'green', 'enviromentally friendly' paints, it makes my head spin...i think they now have about 5 different primers as well....in order to conduct a meaningful experiment, doesn't one component need to be a 'constant"? linseed oil and mineral spirts aren't what they were 20 or 40 years ago, and paint seems to change annually...

i'm at the point now where i prefer that the client specify the primer, paint and sheen that they would like me to use on their windows...i have spoken to so many paint and glazing putty manufacturers--the chemists, not just the sales reps--and followed their instructions only to find the paint showing signs of failure in an unacceptable timeframe....if i chose to use 3 different paint brands on one project employing the same prep methods and they all wear differently, i cannot be sure that the difference is due to the substrate, the weather, my mood, what model car is parked in the driveway or the products used...

i sure would like to find a good solid paint product that looks and wears well and is backed up by a knowledgeable and supportive staff...

i have recently received information from old village paint...talking with the rep was like talking to a trusted uncle who knew his stuff...so do i paint a sash and wait a decade to see how it holds up or follow the rep's instructions and hope for the best?

as an aside, i recently purchased a new coffee maker, a toaster oven and a washer and dryer...if they last til age 5 in good working order, i will be pleasantly surprised, perhaps shocked...my one year old shop pellet stove is on its third circuit board...i just reinstalled my 80 year old wood stove after pulling out the fancy recirculating wood stove i purchased 2 years ago....my 5 year old toyota tundra has 114,000 on it...do i dare upgrade to a new model and be sorry for that choice?? product failure, i think, is planned job security...

...jade


Last edited by jade on Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been thinking along those very lines. The prognosis, sorry as it is, is that the paint industry, whether in this country or not is not in a very good place right now.

For so many years they relied on lead to make their paint good. I doubt that there was even much research going on to find different formulas until lead was removed from being an option. Heck we still used lead in our gas until what the 80's, 90's.

Now the powers that be are removing another supposed menace to our health so the paint industry is scrambling (at last) to find formulas that work at all. I bet research budgets are through the roof. We can only hope that they'll find a good formulas.

Meanwhile we are scrambling and confused and don't really understand why we can't purchase a paint that sticks. And we're reaching far out for answers and there always those that want to grab niche markets with their versions of quality formulas for paint. Some good some not so good and all with their own set of limitations.


I think it best to maybe put a warning on my quotes, that says something like,
" We have prepared the surfaces of your sashes per the paint manufacturers guidelines, but sorry we cannot offer a warrantee against the failure of the paint we use or any other paint in the whole world."

Do ya think that'll hurt business?

It's either this or raise my prices to include a certain amount of painting redoes.

Steve S
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