Problems (& Solutions) with Allback linseed paint
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yep
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Uchmar



Joined: 20 May 2010
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sswiat wrote:
When I studied with Hans Allback in Sweden last February I did address the issue of mold. Hans advised the following:

...



You were attending their school? I recently called the factory and they told me that school has been canceled years ago. Friend told me how they were helpful related to application, techniques, hints and other information. Well, not my experience.

In short, they are very busy, so they have time only for sales. Actually not even for that since they do not sell direct and there are no resellers in my immediate surrounding (Europe), but in France and apparently Germany (only French reseller is listed).

Their paint is quite expensive (up to 4x compared to the "standard" solutions). Now I am a bit less enthusiastic...

I tested epoxy based solution on very damaged lower door frame, which worked quite well, showing no degradation after two years (not even joint cracks which are very hard to avoid and usually show very fast after repainting), and surface could be worked, re-worked and finally sanded to glass-like perfection.

Allback was more "organic" solution. Friend directed me towards materials about their paints. There are some answers, but not about fixing the surface (cracks, splits, edge damage etc.). Some articles do not even recommend excessive sanding (specially machine sanding).
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Uchmar



Joined: 20 May 2010
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found an German producer of flax oil based paints. In case you are interested to look:

http://www.kreidezeit.de/EnglischeVersion/FramesetENG/indexENG.htm

I would be interested if someone could comment (based on the site contents, of course) what is the difference between them and Allback.
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SpinozaQ



Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 24
Location: Rochester NY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I "made" the decision to use Allback paint for my "Exterior Restoration Project". I say that instead of painting my house because when it's 150 year old house with cedar shingle, clapboard, and at least 4 different "types" of old paint on it. It's not exactly just painting.

I was thrilled to learn that the US importer is in Victor NY. I'm in Rochester so I don't even have to pay shipping... yippy!

To prepare the surface I am removing as much paint as possible with an infrared heater paint remover tool thing. ( Speedheater ) And wicked sharp pull scrapers that came with the heater. Nice tools really.

I did a small test area to test both color mixing ratios ( We are mixing the old blue with white for a light blue. ) and quality, coverage, adhesion... all that good stuff. I was quite pleased with the test area. I applied boiled oil and let it dry before applying the paint. The cedar took in more oil then the clapboard, but both covered nicely and adhered well to the paint.

I only bought one liter of blue and one liter of white for the test. After I decided on a 3 to 1 white to blue ratio I mixed up as much 3 to 1 as I could, about a liter I'd say. I used that to paint a much larger section of the house where I had removed all the paint and primed with boiled oil. I noticed a few people discussing shellac as primer. I primed half of the section with shellac instead of oil. I mostly did this for the clapboards, which did not absorb any oil, and I felt the shellac would give superior adhesion with the paint. I was able to paint about 90% of the test area with a single coat of paint using that 1 liter. I'd estimate that to be about 300 sqft of area. I used this coverage to estimate the total amount of paint I would need to paint the entire house. Since 4 liters, just over a gallon, will cover 1200 sqft. in one coat, 600 sqft in two coats... the answer is not much. I estimate that I will need about 32 liters of paint for the entire house. That would be 1400 dollars or so. If I was going to use high quality brand name acrylic paint, it would probably be around 1000 dollars of material. So my current estimate on the price premium of Allback paint is around 40%. Hardly 4x as some have stated.

This estimate may change as my data is rough and only based on one small section. I will post some pictures of the section tonight. The trim and details are not complete. So please don't judge my paint job yet!


Back on the topic of the original poster..... The failure of that paint concerns me greatly! I stared at them for a while. Other then excessive moisture I can think of two things that could play into it, and they are somewhat related.

1.) The age of the paint

I have noticed that some paint I've purchased has "settled" much much more then others. An inch of solid pigment just sitting at the bottom. Took me 5 minutes to stir it back in. Others, no settling at all. Perhaps shelf life in liquid form is an issue?

2.) Not completely stirring.

This happened to me the first time I worked with this paint. I just shook it up really well and when I opened it, it seemed fine. I did not notice until later then the pigment seemed "lacking" on the surface. Could this be a factor?
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i wonder, in all of this, if there might be a better vessel, albeit at a cost premium, from the linseed oil.

perhaps a tung oil mix would be better? tung oil does not mold/mildew like linseed oil does. otherwise the two are quite similar, with the exception that the tung oil film will resist water better than the linseed oil film.
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Uchmar



Joined: 20 May 2010
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The link I posted, Kreidezeit, their base oil is a mix of linseed and tung oil. I was interested someone to comment on their ingredients.

Related to the price of Allback paint, @SpinozaQ, in Europe one liter cost circa 40 euros. Prices of other paints range between 10-20 euros per liter. This is 2x-4x (btw, price difference of 40% is very near to 2x).

Of course, there are other concerns than price. For example, drying time, number of coats needed (longer drying time + more coats = longer project will take), coverage (most linseed oil paint manufacturers claim good coverage, but painting require at least two coats, frequently three coats), etc.
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SpinozaQ



Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 24
Location: Rochester NY

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drying time is the only real "workability" issue I've found using Allback paint. It is a bit of a pain to have to wait _at least_ a whole day to get the second coat on. In my case it's a minor issue because I'm painting the house myself, in my free time. So I always have something else to do while the paint is drying.... like removing the next section of paint! ... or repairing a badly installed gutter... you know how it goes.

I am getting a quality finish with the paint in 2 super thin coats, after I prime with oil. I would expect to need at least 2 coats of any brand name latex, and probably a primer under that. So I regard number of coats as equal between my options.

Crappy vinyl paint must be serious overpriced in Europe. ( All the more reason to not use it I guess. ) Even the "good stuff" can be had for $40 per gallon here. So the price range for exterior paint in the US is $5-10 per liter. vs the $42 per liter I'm paying for Allback. So it's a sticker shock to most Americans. Except that after I painted and measured the dollar per square foot it only came out to be around 40% more then if I had used crappy vinyl paint.

How is a price premium of 40% "very near" 2X? A price premium of 100% equals 2X. There is some serious wiggle room between those numbers.
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uchmar wrote:
The link I posted, Kreidezeit, their base oil is a mix of linseed and tung oil. I was interested someone to comment on their ingredients.

Related to the price of Allback paint, @SpinozaQ, in Europe one liter cost circa 40 euros. Prices of other paints range between 10-20 euros per liter. This is 2x-4x (btw, price difference of 40% is very near to 2x).

Of course, there are other concerns than price. For example, drying time, number of coats needed (longer drying time + more coats = longer project will take), coverage (most linseed oil paint manufacturers claim good coverage, but painting require at least two coats, frequently three coats), etc.


heh, irony. i didn't notice your link, just thought of tung oil off the top of my head.

the two are similar. raw linseed oil won't 'dry' either. it has to be processed in some way.

it would seem to me that tung oil's water repellant properties might make it a better vessel, though. not sure if there's another reason why it isn't used in this matter by more people who make traditional paint.
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PeterMontague



Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 6
Location: Boston Ma

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everyone. I have been working with the Alback products for over a year now. I have slowly been restoring my parents 1917 Colonial Revival. I did the stripping and prep in the winter (2009) and the painting in the spring (2010). There was some rain dirung the painting process. I have noticed some minor mildew issues. I believe these to be water, dirt and coverage issues.


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Claps 3-6 are lacking a cote or two of paint.
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Upper claps are mildew free.
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3.jpg
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The lower claps that are missing a cote of paint and have mildew.
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Casework paint is unaffected.
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The ends of the lower sill appear to have little to no mildew.
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5.jpg




Last edited by PeterMontague on Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PeterMontague



Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 6
Location: Boston Ma

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a limit to 5 images?


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The lower sill is covered with mildew. The surface of the paint shows it was exposed to small amounts of rain during curing.
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7.jpg
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The upper sills are unaffected by mildew. Notice the condition of the wood gutters, rot and mildew are big issues here.
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7.jpg


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PeterMontague



Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 6
Location: Boston Ma

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the multiple posts. The picture does not show it well but the gutters are very rotted and covered in mildew. All window trim is original except the back band. Clapboards are red cedar. Casings and sills are southern yellow pine. Back band is spanish cedar. Primer cote of oil and 2 finish cotes of paint, except claps 3-6 which have 1. My thought is that rain is carrying dirt and mildew from the gutters. The sills being designed to shed water are doing just that but mildew spoors and food are being left behind. I pointed out the ends of the sills being mildew free to support this theory. Claps 3-6 although are impregnated with oil but do not have a cured layer on the surface protecting them. Both upper window have no mildew.

Relating this to the barn I think there are similar things at work. It looks to me like in the half moon pic, the right side (the affected side) has one less cote of paint then the left. The "touch ups" next to the gutter I think are unaffected because there is a cured layer of oil sitting in the surface of the wood.
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2972
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter:

Yes, there is a limit of 5 attachments per message. It's OK to post more messages with 5 each.

Thanks for the field report on your use of Allback Linseed Oil paints. This is stuff is quite different than other paints available here in the US, so it's valuable to us all to hear what you are up to.

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John

by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
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Mill Lee Farm



Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 13
Location: Shippensburg PA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do we have any new thoughts on the Allback Zinc additive?

It's been a while since I started my projects (life got in the way big time) but one of the first things I need to do this spring is address the North side attic window which is in bad shape. It already has bad mildew issues so I'm worried I'll retain them with the Allback. I'm still planning on using the paint. Like many have posted before, I'd just like to have a possible answer for this mildew problem.

If I need to get a can of the zinc paint and add it to my main color, I will. I assume it will lighten the color somewhat, but it shouldn't be too bad as it's a stone house and it'll be far enough from the other painted areas that it shouldn't be noticeable.

Question, I was going to use the IR stripper to try to dry the wood out, and kill the mildew, then use Allback BLO w/ the heater to suck it in, then pigment Allback paint (Lichen color) . Should I add Zink to the BLO as well or just the pigment paint?

Any "other" recommendations for pretreatment? It seems some like a Penetrol/ turpentine/ BLO mix. I'm planning on treating any checking etc. with Allback linseed putty.

Thanks all! Over the past couple years I have directed a few others to this site as it seems to have REAL knowledge available.

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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the zinc additive is a good idea, but I have not tried it.

An infra-red lamp stripper can indeed kill mildew on a wood surface. About 5 years ago I used my infra-red stripper to melt some ice on my front porch wooden steps. I can still see clearly where I set the stripper down on the bare wood treads, since mildew still does not grow on those spots, but does grow where the stripper was not.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
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Tim Storey



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 144
Location: NW Indiana

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Viking Sales advised me to add zinc to the oil -same ratio. My reasoning was that I wasn't sure how soon the final coats would be applied, and I didn't want mildew to start in the meantime. I intend to use zinc in all but the driest/sunny areas. In trouble spots I'll use it in the oil and the paint.
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