Weatherstripping: Meeting Rails, Bottom Rails
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Jeff



Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We used to use the interlocking weatherstripping at the meeting rail, but I never liked it. Among the many concerns, and not to be dismissed, is that the slightest misalignment results in metal rubbing against metal--very unappealing to ear and hand.

Upon Jade's recommendation, we tried the Conservation Technology silicone compression bulb and we've been using it ever since. The seal is impressive--virtually no air infiltration. And I like the way it doesn't make a sound or an unappealing vibration on the hand when you open and close the window.

And so what if it wears out sooner than other weatherstripping? It is oh-so-simple to replace--even the most uncoordinated homeowner could manage it. And you use so little material that the cost is negligible (especially compared to the cost of the interlocking style). This is one instance in which I think the new technology surpasses the old.

That's the stroke, anyway, for the decidedly "different" folk at Oak Brothers!

Jeff
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Skuce



Joined: 08 Nov 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of good information here! thanks people.
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Drew Skuce
PSC Heritage Restoration
5-48 Woodslee Ave. Paris, Ont. Canada
www.ParadigmShiftCustoms.com
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Skuce



Joined: 08 Nov 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stupid question...but what colours are the more popular when it comes to the silicone?

I want to try the stuff out on a couple of windows just for kicks.
The rest I'm doing in the spring bronze.

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Drew Skuce
PSC Heritage Restoration
5-48 Woodslee Ave. Paris, Ont. Canada
www.ParadigmShiftCustoms.com
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 568
Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beige is the norm for us, but we use all three colors.

My bet is you'll switch to the bulb.

Steve S
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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Hawley MA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WS 32, 33, etc are what i use for the meeting rail...

the WS 10, 11, etc i use at the sill rail as they are sturdier'..

check out the colors here: http://www.conservationtechnology.com/building_weatherseals.html

...jade
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sswiat



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 231
Location: Cambria, New York

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use white or brown depending on the sash color.

I am in agreement with the other Steve S.

Spring or cushion bronze works much better with larger gaps such as the side of windows or around doors. It fills larger gaps where it can "spring" out but in my opinion does not have flexibility to fill gaps especially uneven ones. Generally I do not find the meeting rail gap to be that large especially once the sash lock is closed. I just found putting spring bronze between the meeting rails was just put something in there and really questioned if it was doing anything...just my thoughts...
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Jeff



Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jade,

Are you using the compression seal on the top of the top and bottom of the bottom sashes instead of the interlocking metal on a routine basis? I have thought of doing this, but haven't yet tried it. But I'm having a hard time coming up with a valid argument for not doing so. Maybe someone else will convince me I should stick with the tried-and-true interlocking metal system?

Jeff
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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Hawley MA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey jeff...
yes, i do use the compression silicone bulbs at the top of the top sash, the meeting rail and the bottom of the bottom sash...it works quite well on uneven meeting surfaces (in this case most surfaces!)

if the bottom rail has especially shallow wood 'meat' at the open grain of the stiles, i may opt for V bronze...

nice to see you visiting more often jeff....

...jade[/i]
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johnleeke
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2972
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
if the bottom rail has especially shallow wood 'meat' at the open grain of the stiles, i may opt for V bronze...


This little area of short grain, right between the edge of the mortise and the bottom edge of the sash, always seems a bit tricky. Often it's deteriorated and split up, which might require wood-epoxy repair or a wood dutchman. I hate to cut a kerf through it for weatherstripping, weakening it more than it already is, even if it is sound. If I shift the kerf over closer to the face of the sash, then the end-grain of the stile is so cut up it is weakened.

As Jade says, V-bronze weatherstripping can bridge over this area. Are there any other weatherstripping types that don't require cutting into the bottom edge of the sash? Adhesive strip types come to mind, but I hate to use those because the adhesive may last only years, not decades like the other types.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
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sswiat



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 231
Location: Cambria, New York

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I often opt for the outside and inside edges of the sash bottom with bulb. Often I will run a dual strip (maybe overkill).

Even when I do V-bronze I dado a shallow groove on the bottom so the nails and V- bronze will be recessed. Thus if the window did have a good seat on the sill it still would still have it and the V-bronze will not just become something put on the bottom of the sash just because. I find by doing this I am better assured the window will close properly and yet any gaps will be filled.
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2972
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you use bulb on the bottom edge of the bottom rail it needs a kurf. Do you also make a shallow dado on the edge of the sash along the kurf for the bulb to fit into? I notice that this is the way some new windows are made. Without a shallow dado for the bulb it tends to get crushed when the sash is closed, with the dado the bulb is gently deformed into the dado. It seems like this would lead to a longer life for the bulb.

John (nit-picking the details) Leeke


Last edited by johnleeke on Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sswiat



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 231
Location: Cambria, New York

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually the weather checks in the sill give me the all the dado I need...lol
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 568
Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

we use the bulb on the bottom of the bottom rail and the top of the top rail. In order to do this and still have both sashes close properly you must cut almost 1/4" off the bottom rail or the top rail. Normally we'll opt for the top rail unless the looks of the bottom rail will bennifit the trimming up of the rounded worn corners of this rail. Ye I know ouch a little and should we really be cutting anything off the bottom of the sash?

Well We really feel the bulb does the best job of sealing the window when closed. Because the weather stripping is mounted on the sash and not the sill, dirt collection is not a by-product. And by using the bulb on the sash there is no worry about a child cutting their fingers on the sharp edge of the metal, whether it is on the sill or the sash or both (as on interlocking)
John brought up an excellent procedure and one that we began using a couple of years ago. cutting a daddo so the bulb is recessed a little. This eliminates the need to trim the bottom or the top sash.

Does it weaken the ends of the Stiles? Maybe some but if the bottoms are repaired and stable and the sill is angled and draining, then it won't be a problem. We consolidate the bottom of the bottom rail and the ends of bottom of the stiles. We maybe sacrificing some natural drainage or moisture release here but when we consolidate we prevent moisture from entering from the end grains so we consider this a necessary improvement. We do not seal the edge of the stiles at all. This includes the exposed end grain of the tenon on rail also. (unless it has gone through the repair process.)

We spend a lot of time on the bottom of a sash both during our repair procedure and in researching improvements. (for obvious reasone)

Vinyl bulb is so easy to use and so inexpensive and so easy to replace, it would be very difficult to switch back to interlocking metal.

We're spending a lot of time researching new ways to weather strip at the meeting rails area especially at the parting stop. We're working on a prototype for a small cap to fit in this area. We think it has value since this is the most difficult area in a window to keep the breeze out.

Vinyl bulb--help support our petrochemical industry. haha Still tough to beat the bulb.

Steve S
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sswiat



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 231
Location: Cambria, New York

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I am understanding this right Steve, you dado and kerf the bottom rail so the bulb has some "squish"(technical term) room? Interesting idea. I have seen from the European restorations that they slightly dado the bottom rail and attach the non-fin silicone bulb with silicone adhesive. From the ones I have seen it appears to stick very well. I am not sure of the adhesive they use but it eliminates the deep kerf into weak end grain.

Oh yes, those dreaded meeting rail/parting bead gaps.
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 568
Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know a non kerf bulb glued into a slight dado will greatly reduce any weakening of the the bottom rail corners. And really if we were to consolidate this dado their would be less chance of glue failure.
That is an outstanding high value way of doing this. Merits a try or as John would put it----a field test is in the making.


Thank you for your thoughts there Mr Sweden visiting guy.
Steve S
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