Interior Air Panels, Instructions.
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massbuilder



Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a great idea John.
I love it.

I like the idea of still being able to open a window if you need to without too many hassles.

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popeye46



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering if any of the other 3M two sided tapes will work with the heat shrink film.......there are several others available that are less expensive and sound like they would be a longer lasting solution....?
987 DOUBLE SIDED Scotch TAPE 3M ATG transfer is one that sounds promising as it will stick to the bare wood better, only question is will it adhere to the film without damaging it. It is not supposed to get wet but will be on inside storm windows so I do not see that as being a problem.
Your forum has been a big help in making the storm windows for our 1906 farm house.......thanx
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Laura



Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 9
Location: New Hampshire

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@jeFinch

Thanks for the backer rod cutting suggestion. Did you find you had a problem with the rod stretching (and the diameter shrinking) as you fed it through the blade? A friend made a prototype with a blade fastened to the end of a piece of PVC pipe, but the pushing/pulling motion on the backer rod caused too much distortion.

I was able to improve my scissoring technique with practice. For me, the secret turned out to be cutting only an inch or two of the rod, partially closing the blades rather than long strokes where I fully closed the scissor blades with each cut.

We completed 4 last fall and they were a big success. Hope to finish the rest of the house this year.
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Double-stick Tape:

I expect that other tapes will work. The only way to know is to try them out.

Please report back here on the specific tape you use (manufacturer, product name, product number, costs, etc.) with what it is like to use it, and how long it lasts. This is how we learn, by sharing what we know.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought
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hamster



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi john i e-mail you and you told me maybe my old storm window could be fixed. well i decided against that old ugly thing lol. and went and built a air panel. it worked out great fits nice and tight and so far the cold weather today has stayed out. i would like to thank you on a wonderful product to share. god bless and stay warm :). hopefully my mold stays down now i went and cleaned it up and sprayed some mold stop on it.
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's great, I'm glad it worked out for you.

Keep us posted on your good works there.

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steve_walls



Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: slight variation on weatherstripping Reply with quote

I've just completed my first interior storm, and it came out well in the end.

I did run into one problem though it turned out to be a great learning experience. I had not left enough space around the frame to accommodate the split backer rod, so I had to rip that off and used instead a combination of John's method of rolling plastic sheeting and another approach I found on the internet that stapled folded plastic to the back of the frame for a gasket. I rolled about a foot and a half of some plastic sheeting with the help of a dowel so that my roll was an inch or inch and a half in diameter. I then stapled one edge of the roll to the back of the frame so that the rest of the roll stuck out all around the edge. This is not only cheap, but very forgiving. It would seem to be capable of filling a gap anywhere between a couple sixteenths of an inch to a half inch or so.

The panel fit very snugly and you hardly see the weatherstripping at all.
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rondans



Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read your article and all the posts. We live in Santa Fe in a 20 yr old passive solar house. The entire south side is double pane large fixed windows (most of them 35 X 75). Works great in the day - heat storage is in the brick floor. The problem is at night with all that cold glass. We have drapes but they don't provide much in the way of insulation. I've priced good quality roll-down insulating blinds with magnetic sealing strips - $300 a piece. There's no room for any other type of moveable insulation system. The frames are all thick handmade wood, and I'd prefer not to install anything on the exterior. That's what started me thinking about the type of system you describe.

Just before I started to build some frames, I spoke with a friend in PA - he said that he had build these kind of panels many years ago and was thankfully finally getting rid of them. He said the problem was condensation between the plastic and the regular window which froze at night, and in the morning melted and left a puddle of water on the windowsill. He lives in an area with lots of humidity (especially as compared to where we are).

Any info or feedback would be welcome.

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Santa Fe, NM
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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 145
Location: Fort Kent, ME

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive had an idea ive been stewing over for the last few months. Taking the idea of an interior storm as discussed in this thread, would it be practical to apply this technique to the 2x2 lites on my exterior hanging storms?

Im thinking that having the clear film applied to the inside of my exterior storms would, to a degree, mimic the effect of a double pane storm. (of course nowhere near as efficient as modern doublepane glass)... But im thinking this would:

a) reduce condensation on the inside glass of my 100 year old storms.
b) increase the energy efficiency of my double hung sash/exterior storm arrangement
c) be more "invisible" from both the inside and the outside of the house.
d) be a no brainer in spring and fall. since the clear film would be permanently attached to the exterior storms. so no worry about extra storage and handling!

I just cant stand condensation on the inner glass of my storms. The storms I rebuild are extremely well sealed, and after rebuilding the double hung sashes (regular 100 year old house windows) they too are well sealed. But nothing is ever 100% with period double-hungs, and when its 0 F out and 68F inside, the single airgap between inner sash glass and outer storm glass is sometimes not enough to prevent frost or condensation.

What do you think?

Mike
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To reduce condensation on the interior side of the glass of your exterior storms, loosen up the fit of the storms so there is some ventilation from the exterior to the space between the storm and the primary sash; and tighten up the fit of the primary sash, possibly with weatherstripping, or add interior air panels to limit air exfiltration from the interior of the house to the space between the primary sash and the storms.
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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 145
Location: Fort Kent, ME

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnleeke wrote:
To reduce condensation on the interior side of the glass of your exterior storms, loosen up the fit of the storms so there is some ventilation from the exterior to the space between the storm and the primary sash; and tighten up the fit of the primary sash, possibly with weatherstripping, or add interior air panels to limit air exfiltration from the interior of the house to the space between the primary sash and the storms.


Hi John. Yup, this has been done. I have vents on some of the storms, and I allow a tiny gap on my felt weatherstipping near the top of the storms (on ea. side) for venting.

The interior sashes are WAY tight. and well sealed with weatherstripping. I think the fact that the weight channels and pulleys allow air exfiltration to wick from the inside of the house a bit is a contributory factor.

But my question is do you think that having this second barrier will add enough temp differential between barriers and reduce the likelyhood of condensation?

(outside air) |<storm glass (air gap) |<sash glass (inside air)
vs
(outside air) |<storm glass (air gap) |<film (air gap) |<sash glass (inside air)

If i can eliminate the need to vent my ext. storms i think it would be an added benefit in reducing air infiltration into the house
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The micro-climate from one side of the house to the next, and right around and within each window is somewhat to extremely different, which can affect condensation. The easiest way to know if your proposed treatment will work is to simple try it out. It may work on one side of the house and not on the other, etc.

Many people these days get a bug-a-boo in their brains about condensation because the replacement window industry uses it as a sales tactic by calling it a "problem." Some condensation was considered normal until about 20 years ago. Some condensation can occur without causing any problems with the traditional primary sash and storm window combination as traditionally done. People knew that if there was condensation and they wanted to see out, they would just prop open the storm and the condensation would clear. You have to operate the windows in these old houses to get the effect you want. Sealing up the storms too tight causes problems because the space between the storm and primary sash cannot ventilate to clear out the condensation.

More that 85% of the energy saving benefit of storms is provided by keeping the blast of cold wind off of the primary sashes' glass. To expect storm windows to prevent air infiltration-exfiltration causes problems. Loosening up the seal of exterior storms is OK. When we install storms we leave a 1/4" to 5/16" gap all along the bottom edge. Try propping your storm open a little to see if the condensation clears. If it does then you know you need to loosen up your storms.

The whole idea of sealing up windows so tight started with the 1970s energy crunch. It's a bad idea to try to save energy at windows. It's bad because it is promoted by the window replacement industry just so they can sell more windows. If you really want to save energy, save it at the furnace or boiler. Turn down your thermostat just one degree and you will probably save hundreds of dollars over a heating season.

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fly on the wall



Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Posts: 3
Location: Salt Lake City

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this info. I'm trying to decide the hows and whats of interior storm windows for a bathroom with two windows. After reading about your air pannels I'm thinking of making my own rather than buying a kit.

"I find that the adhesive in the double-stick tape lasts 1-2 years if the panel is left in place year-round on the sunny side, and 3-4 years if removed seasonally and is on the shady side."

Is it the tape which fails first on these panels? I'm wondering about using a channel and spline like on a window screen. I tried putting heat shrink film in an old window screen frame I had lying around and it seems to hold quite well. I'm thinking I could use my router and a bit such as is used for the barbed weather stripping to cut a channel and then hold the plastic film in place with a screen spline. But if the film fails before the double stick tape, why bother.
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have tried the channel and spline for the film. A bare wood surface in the channel does not give enough "grip," the fill pulls right out. We tried arisol spray dry-mount adhesive in the channel which worked, but it was not "slick and quick." It's possible that a matte varnish would give a "grippy" surface in the channel, but have not tried it.

The channel and spline is what they use on the metal frames of the Advance Energy Panels. It is slick and quick.

Keep us posted on your developments and results.

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fly on the wall



Joined: 12 Nov 2008
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Location: Salt Lake City

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, Thank you for the reply. It is great to know what you've tried so I don't reinvent the wheel.

So, is it the double-stick tape which fails first on these panels? If the film fails before the double-stick tape, perhaps I shouldn't bother with a channel and spline.

Was your channel cut perpendicular to the bare wood? I'm wondering if using a table saw with the blade set at an angle such that the channel was angled away from the pull of the film would give the spline more grip.

I have looked at the Advance Energy Panels and might use them or make something similar for other windows. But this room has the original never painted windows and beaded board walls, so I think a matching wood framed panel would be preferable to metal screen type frame.
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