My first project log
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Hannah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 74
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:21 am    Post subject: My first project log Reply with quote

I've got the sashes out on my first window. Here is the upper sash, stripped of paint and ready for the 40-40-20 mix of BLO, Terp, and Penetrol.



Here is a closeup of the bottom rail of the lower sash (not yet completely stripped of paint). Should I put some epoxy filler in this gap?



Long have I heard about the capillary action of the end grain of window jambs. Chew on this, and chime in. My window sills have rotted away, leaving the end grain of the jambs exposed, but not so damaged as to require epoxy hardner or filler. Could/should I, before I replace the sills, put some of that BLO/Terp/Penetrol just on the end grain of the jambs? (Not on the jamb face where it might make the sashes stick.) My reasoning follows that if the end grains have soaked up the good stuff, they'll be less likely to soak up water if the sill gets wet. Your two cents' worth would be appreciated!

Still looking for the best primer and paint. It seems a lot of the ones discussed here aren't available anymore, and pardon my French, but Home Despot is for sh*t on paints. I had a bad experience at my local Benjamin Moore shop, but I have not yet checked out my local Sherwin-Williams to see if the A100 paints and primers are still available. Got my fingers crossed!

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johnleeke
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hannah:

Here we're looking at the end-grain of your sash's stile. It looks like it might be in pretty good shape (no checks), but could you post another photo after you have removed the paint? That would give the opportunity for a better evaluation.

Should you apply an oil pre-treatment to the end-grain? To answer this yourself, just look at the evidence right there in your hand. If the sash has survived this long and the end-grain is still in good condition, then maybe no pre-treatment is necessary. However, a single light application of oil would probably help today's (lesser quality) primers and paints perform better. Make it a light application so it does not tend to trap moisture in the wood like a heavy application would do. If there is limited wood deterioration (slightly soft and punky at the surface, but sound right beneath the surface), then a heavier application of oil pre-treatment would be good. In any case, the oil pre-treatment should be designed to stabilize and improve the surface for better primer adhesion, and not to repair decayed wood. It's a balancing act: too little oil and the paint doesn't stick; too much oil and moisture is trapped in the joint, leading to decay in the future.

Definitely do not fill the gap.

That gap is call the weep hole or sometimes called a "ventilation hole," a "bored franking," or a "franking hole." The hole has two purposes. The first is to allow a space for the wider molded profile of the stile to pass through the joint. The second purpose of the hole is to allow any water that gets in the joint to have channel to weep out, and to let a little air up into the joint to help keep the wood of the joint dry.


This photo shows the bottom edge of the lower sash. The weep hold is the dark half-round shape at the joint between the stile and the rail.


This video is about 20 minutes long, at minute 9:20 I show and talk about the weep hole, here I call it the "franking hole."

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

>>I had a bad experience at my local Benjamin Moore shop,<<

What's that about?

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Hannah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 74
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem hasn't been with the quality of Benjamin Moore's product, but with that of the employees at my local store. I brought in some tiles from my bathroom floor and asked them to match the color...it was way, WAY off. Not even close. (To their credit, I never complained, though I should have.) All the employees were high school kids and very lackadaisical. This was back when I was first getting my feet wet in home improvement; they told me to paint the ceiling with high-gloss and I believed them! So I wasted about $80 there, all told, which is a lot of money to me.
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

try SW, it's really a matter of which has people working there that know what they're doing.

there's no old timers working at the SW i go to either but it's all people who have worked there through their college years at least so they know what they're doing.

any idea what kind of wood your sashes are? they don't look like yellow pine, and appear to be in really good condition, lumber wise.

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Hannah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 74
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rncx: They're softwood for sure, I thought pine but maybe fir? I'll have to bust out the microscope and the wood identification book from my old wood science class.

John: Just to clarify: I know my picture was of the sash stile end grain, but I was wondering if I should treat the jamb end grain, too (not pictured). And thanks for the info about the franking hole! That would have been dumb of me, to plug that up. In fact, that's why the sills are gone in the first place, because the storm windows' weep holes had been plugged up by some well-intentioned person.

I'm really excited about this, I ordered my sash pulls and locks last night. Polished chrome over solid brass, to match the doorknobs and hinges I want to get eventually.

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, OK. I guess the jamb end-grain would be exposed if you are removing an entirely rotten sill.

If the end-grain, and the jamb part of the jamb/sill joint, is sound there is usually no need for treatment.

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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

old growth firs and yellow pines typically have much more red than yours appear to have. spanish cedar maybe? how heavy are they?

oiling the sash before paint, in my opinion, you don't have to be really meticulous with about where to get and where not to get the mixture. i just kinda slop it all over making sure everything gets covered.

it helps the primer bite a little better, it'll darken the insides if they're going to be stained/shellac'd/varnished/etc and make the grain stand out a little more and look nicer, and the turp will kill off any unseen parasites. that's really about all there is to it. the wood will entirely absorb it all anyways, so it doesn't matter how you apply it.

even if you get some on the end grain it'll be ok, it would take way more than one coat with a brush to saturate those ends. in fact you can pour oil on the ends of boards until the oil comes out the other end, that's how they finish wooden meat chopping blocks. even when the tree is dead the cells still work ;).

don't worry too much about it.

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Hannah



Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 74
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got my SW A100 paint and primer yesterday. The A100 primer is now called "Exterior Wood Primer" and is available in oil-base or acrylic. I got the oil-based version. The topcoat is acrylic. SW said that some states are outlawing oil-based paints but no such plans are on the table for Kansas in the near future--yay! I'm using this primer and paint on both the interior and exterior faces of the sashes, so I primed the interior face today and will prime the exterior face next. Then I will reglaze and paint. I want to have the sashes done before I attack the sill and brickmold, because I'll have to have the storms out for that phase. I think I'll be replacing the storms, too; I'm still shopping around.

I ordered my sash hardware from Kilian Hardware--lift handles and draw-tight sash locks, polished chrome over solid brass. The existing locks are badly rusted and have a 1959 patent, meaning they aren't original anyway.

rcnx: The sashes are very, very light weight. Probably less than 5 pounds (I don't have a scale). I doubt they're old-growth; my house was built in an era of wartime shortages--steel wiring with cloth insulation, iron plumbing, etc. I will still try to identify the wood when I get my book out of storage, though, just for kicks. :)

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hannah:

Thanks for the update on Sherwin-Williams products in your area.

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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

they might even be cypress, now that i look at them again they look kinda like cypress in certain parts of the grain.

i'd bet on cypress, spanish cedar, or white pine. if cypress, the wood will kinda have a spongey texture. hard to describe, it's more visible in the end grain.

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Hannah



Joined: 20 May 2011
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Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dang. rcnx, you have me really curious now! I got the wood identification book but don't have a microscope for the book to be of any use to me. There are a few tiny, tiny beads of dried sap in some of the nooks and crannies--came out of the end grain decades ago. They are dark red in color and when crushed, have a most un-cedar like scent. Here are some photos, as close-up as I could get them, of the sashes:

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/255705_224489504246623_100000567264525_873390_50618_n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/254814_224489607579946_100000567264525_873391_4713984_n.jpg

(I think I've met my quota for images, please follow links)

Any ideas?

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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well in that case it does suggest fir.

cypress has no noticeable sap, what's there is very thin and watery and soon goes away as the wood dries. same goes for spanish cedar.

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Hannah



Joined: 20 May 2011
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Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



I glazed my first pane last night (not even a whole sash). It was still over 100 degrees in my garage at 1:00 A.M. I had sweat dripping off my nose and the putty stuck to everything, even though it had just come out of the air conditioning! I ended up rubbing a little whiting into my palms so it wouldn't stick to my hands, and that worked well. I used the "place, pack, and tool method" and tooled with the traditional method.

Should I bring the sashes indoors into the air conditioning for the putty to skin and set better? The humidity here is around 80 percent. I'm leaving for a four-day trip tomorrow, so if I get the other pane glazed tonight that'll be perfect--they can skin over while I'm gone.

Also, the bottom sash has a glazing dado, not a rabbet, on its topmost edge. Is this common, and should I just stick a little snake of putty down into the dado? The dado is exactly .20" according to my caliper. The picture below shows a pencil and a business card in the dado. The sash is upside-down, this would be the top right corner, viewed from the outside. The edge of the card is covering up the edge of the rabbet--the card sits as the pane of glass would.



How do I putty this dado?

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Hannah
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Andy in NH



Joined: 01 Mar 2006
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Location: Lyndeborough, NH

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can just stuff the putty into that top rabbet, then push your glass into the center of it (so you have a little bit of back-bedding on the face). If you are concerned about the humidity, leave a fan blowing on the sash while you are gone if that is convenient.
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