wood stops instead of glazing putty?
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BlakeAronson



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 48
Location: Long Beach, CA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:46 am    Post subject: wood stops instead of glazing putty? Reply with quote

I am utitlizing a local sash & door company to recreate 3 sashes that were too badly damaged to be repaired. They asked if I wanted the glass installed or not and then told me they don't glaze, instead they cut a thin triangular strip of wood that mimics the look of glazing putty and they use small staples/brads to secure it in, I saw the finished product and it looked very clean with no gaps, like a perfect glazing job. The benefit being that you can paint and install the sash right away. the wood stop can be pried off if you ever need to replace the glass.

Any negatives to this approach? It sounds much easier, especially not having to wait for the glaze to dry before painting. But will it stand the test of time like old fashioned glazing putty? It seems like a lazy short cut to me, but if it's durable enough I see no reason not to do it.
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

>>But will it stand the test of time like old fashioned glazing putty? <<

No. I've seen this "stick glazing" fail several times within 4 to 6 years and one time is was 18 months.

It's a modern shortcut method designed to eliminate the need for skilled glazers, reduce production time and increase profits, without regard to durability.

Here is the link to the time-tested traditional method of glazing with putty:

http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=955

It's also easier and more effective to maintain traditional putty glazing:

http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1574

than to repair stick glazing.

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it could last longer than that in the mild climate of Long Beach, where I don't have any experience, but...just saying...hard to beat tradition. Traditional putty glazing would last longer in a mild climate too.
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SashGuy



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Location: Houston

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnleeke wrote:
Well, it could last longer than that in the mild climate of Long Beach, where I don't have any experience, but...just saying...hard to beat tradition. Traditional putty glazing would last longer in a mild climate too.


John, FYI, Here in the "Sauna" a customer damaged two lower rails after 6 years with these. They were properly primed with an overlap onto the glass and still failed. GC
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squarehead



Joined: 19 Apr 2011
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Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glazing with glass bead goes back a long long time. But it is not a triangle for one, it is a bead, filleted in best work, and reserved for lites too large to putty.

Wood in triangular section fairs poorly in harsh exposure. Points curl and erode.

I have found glass bead to have endured surprisingly well. It requires like putty maintenance to endure on weathered exposures.

D Square
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could you describe glazing with glass bead a little more? I've never heard of this.
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SashGuy



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The glass is framed with wooden glass bead in the same manner that you would install panes in a door. Below is the Boston Round profile. Preferred method is to prime the rabbit and wood with oil based primer, underlay the wood with glazing compound (although this is not always the case), cut your 45's, tack it in. It's painted in the same manner that you would handle conventional glazing.
The up side is it's a good look with minimal wait. Down side is failure due lack of maintenance.

If anyone has varied methods used in specific regions, please add.



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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yes, ok. We use that a lot here in New England when glazing glass panes into doors.
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squarehead



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glass bead details.

A page from Jones Lumber catalog, 1923, Portland, Oregon.

Glass bead at work in the storm sash. Sashes made in 1993.



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Last edited by squarehead on Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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BlakeAronson



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you for the input guys, I think I'll go with the traditional glazing putty instead.
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the simplest explanation is, wood is not stable, and glass is. if you want to join the two, the medium you join them with needs to be flexible to accommodate both materials, while maintaining a seal/bond.

there is no way wood can do that, nor can metal.

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los angeles



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
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Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: wood stops on 1910 windows Reply with quote

I am restoring a large 1910 house in Los Angeles with wood stops on all the windows. This was an architect designed house for a wealthy owner, and the same windows were used on another house designed by the same architect for a relative of the original owner.

The sashes and stops were made of redwood, and generally the system has worked well for 100 years . . . although in my house there was less than no maintenance for decades, so major repairs have been necessary top to bottom, including to many windows.

Reglazing has been necessary on many panes because they were broken or replaced with plastic in the years before I acquired the house, and many other panes of original glass need work to seal them. How to do this has prompted debate and even a bit of a fight with my contractor, a self-proclaimed specialist in restoration.

I want new and repaired glazing to be done as per the original: oil or shellac on the rabet, a bed of linseed oil putty for the glass, then a bead of putty as a bed on top of the glass for the wood stops, then linseed oil paint. The whole exterior is getting linseed oil paint.

The contractor wants to use siliconized acrylic latex caulk (shellac on the rabet, the caulk as a bed for the glass, then a bead of caulk on top of the glass as a bed for the wood stops).

Allback warns against contact between linseed oil and silicone sealants because the oil can "destroy" the silicone seal, but half-suggests the two products can be used if shellac separates them. Allback discusses this in the context of using their paint on new double glazed windows.

In may house, the question concerns original 1910 single glazed windows.

In theory, it looks like the linseed oil paint might not seep far enough into the crevice between the wood stops and glass to get down to the sealant. Nevertheless, I have tried to argue for using linseed oil glazing putty rather than caulking.

Any thoughts about the materials questions?
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stick with the original system of all traditional materials that would have been used at the time, or use all contemporary materials, but don't mix the two.

Original Traditional System and Materials
Investigate the original system in your house and the other house, to determine how it has held up and how it has failed. Determine the causes of success and failure, and what has passed the test of time.

Contemporary Materials
Well, here you're going to be dependent less on the test of time, and more on the experience of your contractor, which may not be that bad.
I'd ask the contractor how how many times he has used those materials in this situation, and over what period of time. Report back with his answers and I'll see if I can help you analyze them.

Which ever way you go, do at least one or two windows the other way. Then both you and the contractor will learn something definite over time. If you post the results here then all of us will know.

There is probably a big difference between "silicone sealant" and "siliconized acrylic latex caulk". An industry insider once told me that many consumer caulk products are "siliconized" for the sole purpose of marketing, because the words "silicone" and "siliconized" sell more of whatever it is stamped on. They add a few molecules of silicone and then can legally (and profitably) use the word in describing the product. Who knows what specific products the Allback marketers and the contractor are talking about? If you can find out, also get the product MSDS sheets and tech. sheets and maybe we can sort it out. Remember, one of the strategies of consumer product marketing is to confuse the consumer, which is exactly what is happening here. But, take heart. As my 11th grade history teacher said, "Out of confusion arrises understanding.

Can you attach some photos?

Who is your contractor?

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los angeles



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
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Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the response, and I should also thank you for your website, too

The proposed caulk is DAP Alex Plus, "Acrylic Latex Caulk Plus Silicone." A 35 year guarantee, so DAP says.

I will try attaching a few photos: two of windows at the start of the project, when the house was in ill repair and covered in stucco; one photo of the house last week with clapboard uncovered and taking white Allback paint; and one photo of windows and a covered porch at the related house.

The photos of windows are not close-up enough to show all the detail you want to see, but zooming in should show the wood glazing stops. Over the next few days I will take close-ups that show the wood stops.

I am with you on the use of the original method. It is my preference, but it is requiring a fight.

Failure of the original glazing on my house was caused by less than zero maintenance. You will see what I mean in the photos: paint slobbered on the windows, the stucco, etc, all worse than doing nothing.

Regular ordinary maintenance (i.e, regular paint) would have worked pretty well, and surely re-painting with linseed oil would have kept the glazing in excellent shape.

About the name of my contractor . . . I am thinking about whether to reveal that. I am sure you can understand that there are considerations about completing the project. The contractor-client politics of this could go either way (better to reveal his name or better not to reveal). Best for now to wait on that.
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los angeles



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having trouble with the photo attachments. Here is a second try:

No, it does not seem to be working. I will need to try to figure this out later.

I can send photos to you by e-mail, John, if your address is on the website.

Thanks again



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