Steambox Deglazing
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another advantage of the vertical box is that handling glass and sash vertically is always safer than horizontally, and usually a slight bit faster as well.
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sswiat



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 231
Location: Cambria, New York

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the steam can be quite painful. Not using the staem box for awhile, I forget when opening the door how hot that steam blast can be...I think my face my look abit like a lobster...

The exhaust vent is a great idea. I was looking at the plumbing parts at the local hardware store trying to figure out just how to do it. The nice think about the vertical box is you can unlatch the door and stand behind/alongside the door when opening thus out of the way of that "blast"

I do have my box leaning at a slight angle with the glazed side facing up "just'n' case there is a loose piece of glass". By leaning up hopefully it will not just drop out.

I am using the galvanized metal conduit. The plastic will actually deform from the heat. I thought about a roller system (but if I spend to much time on building the ultimate box Jade will yell at me...)
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Martin reports on his progress Reply with quote

Martin reports on his progress:

The steam box was by far the fastest way to
deglaze a sash panel keeping the glass intact. My
system is as follows:

1. Steam panel 20 to 30 minutes
2. Remove panel from steam with gloves and
quickly strip out all glazing and glazing points
with scrapers
3. Lift out glass and scrape off most of glazing
residue immediately. Label glass with sharpie and
safely stash glass for next phase
4. Immediately clean out the rest of glazing from
sash then replace in steamer (while working on
next panel)
5. After done with other panel, go back to first
one and see how paint is lifting. Remove as much
paint as possible without too much grain lifting
(because wood is still dampened).
6. Put glass in steam box for 10 minutes and take
out to finish cleaning off residue from glazing.
Clean glass properly ready for re-install after
priming of sash panel
7. Sit damp panel in warm spot or sun to dry out
a bit.
8. Use Silent paint remover to remove rest of
paint and make ready for any required epoxy
repairs before priming, reglazing and painting.

Using the steam box, my glass breakage rate was
reduced from about 40% down to 5% to 10%. Very
successful.

I made my box larger than usual as I have
some large sash panels to attack from my living
room. It was nice though as I could stack four
sashes (with polystyrene blocks recycled from
packaging boxes laid in between the sashes) or a
bunch of pieces of glass I was cleaning off at
once.

Last summer/fall I managed to completely restore
16 sash panels. Out of those, I think I reused
the original glass 8 times, used reclaimed glass
(from salvaged panels) 5 times, and used new
unwavy glass 3 times

Overall I'm pleased with the way the windows have
turned out. It's been a huge undertaking to say
the least. And the steam box procedure is only a
small part of the whole process, which definitely
gets a little daunting when you do it right.
Especially with proper sash frame restoration
with chains and draught-proofing, complete steps
in painting, and wood repairs etc etc etc. I have
second guessed myself many times and thought I
should have one of the guys on your forum do the
restoration. But quite frankly I don't think I
could afford it, knowing how much time each
window REALLY takes to do right. I think I would
end up with something I wouldn't be totally
pleased with unless I spent a small fortune on
it.


That's my story. Cheers, Martin.


Last edited by johnleeke on Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am using Dave's standard steam box with 2" insulation board.

During my recent windows training workshop we operated the steam box vertically, steam in at the top, open ventilation port at the bottom, door on the side, for a 10-15% decrease in steaming time, while achieving 208 degrees at the top of the box and 204 degrees at the bottom.

The very latest innovation is "bottom loading" so the steam in the box is not lost when exchanging sash, another 5-10% decrease in steaming time, since it does not take 5 to 10 minutes to refill the box with steam.

Typical sash steaming times are now as short as 15 minutes up to 25 minutes.

John
by steam and heat we strip it neat
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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 785
Location: Hawley MA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my steambox is made from 1" foil faced--both sides--rigid insulation...i use a high temp silicone caulk to 'glue' the insulation together and then install a couple of bands of 1x strapping around the box for stability--the wood is NOT attached to the box, just itself...i use the steambox in a vertical position with a piece of 1x at the front bottom of the box so that the water drains to the back where i have drilled out a few holes....the hose for the steamer is inserted at the lowest corner in the rear of the box....the vertical position allows the water to drain off the sash so the glass comes out relatively dry...

indeed the steam can burn skin or get into one's eyes, not unlike heat escaping from an oven when first opened....my door is not hinged, i just pull it off, let the steam escape and use thermal gloves to remove the sash...the vertical box has less area where the steam escapes...for instance, a 14" opening on the vertical box allows for a 14" stream of steam...a 4 foot horizontal box has a 4 foot area of steam escaping....if i were to use a venting system, i would use a 'damper' not unlike one found in a wood stove...open the vent all the way when you are ready to remove the sash and crack the door open--the heat should quickly escape out the vent....

SCREEEEAAAM! that's me yelling at steve!!

...jade
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MohrJax



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Jacksonville, Florida

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:04 pm    Post subject: Steam Box Reply with quote

Hey guys,

I have been stripping windows for about 2 years. I've always used chemicals or heat guns. I started a business so i figure I give this steam box a try. save time, faster turn around, make more money right!? Well I'm not having very good results, in fact they are bad results. I'm thinking maybe I used the wrong material for the box. I didn't use "tuff-r" but a similar product that is 3/4 inch thick. Only one side is foiled, would that make a difference? I'm not too sure how hot it really gets in there but I plan to use a thermostat next time I go to my garage, tomorrow. I ran one sash for an hour, the glaze was barely soft enough to remove-even that took some work. virtual no paint was soft enough to remove, maybe 5%. I realize that the steam process is for stripping MANY layers of paint, it turns out that this sash had one layer of paint but the paint was moldy, which is one reason why the homeowner wanted them to be redone. there is several layers of glaze, which I can soften by just holding the nozzle over it for about 3 minutes, which seems too long-in comparison to what I have see John do. Any ideas? I have turned my attention on working on-site redoing the frames until I can figure something better for the sashes. I really want the steam box to work- I have seem it in action which is why I bought the plans to built it. Help! :)

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Angel Corrales

MOHR Historic Restoration Company
1308 Dancy Street
Jacksonville, Florida 32205
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 2940
Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, a series of questions & comments:

Steam Generator: what make and model? how many watts?

Sash: try a test sash or two from another building, any different results? (this will tell us if your difficulty has to do with the sash or the box/steamer)

Method: we often use more that one method, such as steam for removing the glazing & glass, then infra-red lamp for paint removal.

Box: the thinest foam board insulation I have used is 1". Can you describe or attach photos showing how your box and steam generator are rigged up? Are you operating your box horizontal or vertical?

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MohrJax



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Jacksonville, Florida

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm using the Jiffy J4000 1500watts. I plan on trying another sash tomorrow, of course from a different building. I did used the steam to soften the glaze and remove the glass then used head guns for the rest. I will take pictures tomorrow. I am using it horizontally. My box is bigger than Dan's design, 48x50. I also added a little side door so the steam can escape without burning the operator.
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Angel Corrales

MOHR Historic Restoration Company
1308 Dancy Street
Jacksonville, Florida 32205
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MohrJax



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Jacksonville, Florida

PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an update. I talked to Dan Bowers and he said that the material must have a certain R value. The material I'm using is R-Max 3/4" which has an R-value of 5, which is 2 less then the 1" Tuff-R. I poked in a typical grilling thermostat and let the box fill with steam it reached 200 degree in about 35 minutes. After opening the door for about 30 seconds, to hypothetically remove the sash, it drops down to 120 degree. And it takes another 20 minutes to reach 200 again. I also placed the thermostat on the tip of the steam pipe and it reached about 218 degree in 4-5 seconds. It never got any hotter than that. I did tried a different window from a different house (25 minutes inside the box, it reached 200 and I left it there for another 15 minutes and it gave me the same results. I tried deglazing by holding the steam head on the glaze for about 2 minutes and results improved but I noticed I was loosing a lot of steam from all sides of the head. I'm using a 1 1/2"x 10" (1 1/4" diameter) head. I know John shows another one but I couldn't find it at my local box chain store. I think my verdict is that the R-Max isn't good enough, agree? I got pictures but not sure I can attach them.


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Angel Corrales

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Jacksonville, Florida 32205
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Angel:

I think that the thickness of the insulation board must be it, unless your joints of the boards are loose and let out too much of the steam.

It looks like it is well made in the photos.

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MohrJax



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Jacksonville, Florida

PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The joints are all sealed with a waterproof foil tape. I loose 3-5% and thats from the drain hole and the little side door.Thanks for all the help. I'll build a new one today and see how it works. And sorry for the misspeaking, it's Dave Bowers, not Dan. Sorry Dave!
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Angel Corrales

MOHR Historic Restoration Company
1308 Dancy Street
Jacksonville, Florida 32205
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MohrJax



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
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Location: Jacksonville, Florida

PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was able to build the new box but haven't run a test yet. I got to say it was a challenge to get some Tuff-R material down here. I call about 15 places before I found someone that had it in stock.
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Angel Corrales

MOHR Historic Restoration Company
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Jacksonville, Florida 32205
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MohrJax



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
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Location: Jacksonville, Florida

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Box works! I am running it vertically, per Jade's advice. Boy thats really saves so room. The glaze on these windows are tough to get out. Even after 45 minutes its barely soft enough to remove(softer than before though). I was able to deglaze 6 sashes (average 34"x36") in about 3 hours. The paint has a very hard time coming off. I think that's because there is a polyurethane finish below the paint. Does that make sense to anyone else? I remove most of the paint by heat guns. Things are going well. Thanks for all the help.
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Angel Corrales

MOHR Historic Restoration Company
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Jacksonville, Florida 32205
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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
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Location: Hawley MA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

angel.....
i forgot about the benefit of less space for the vertical box...the most significant advantage (for me) is that the water rolls off the glass and onto the floor of the box making it an easier and cleaner glass/putty removal process...6 sash in three hours sounds like a good deal especially when you take into consideration opening and closing the door, setting the sash in the box and clean up.....

glad this is working out for you...there is some putty that is very stubborn--typically contains a high content of lead--and requires a hefty dose of patience and elbow grease.....

keep up the good work!
...jade
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jade,

What is the sealant/adhesive you used to glue your steam box together?

How long did it take the glue to set?

Does gluing together mean you do not need the wooden framework to hold the insulation board together?

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