Window Procedure: 9. Sash Glazing & Painting (Video).
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johnleeke
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you get the chance, buy another tub of DAP from a paint shop or hardware store, it might work better. Open it up in the store and see what the consistency is before you buy it.

Take what you have back to HD, it sounds like it is no good.

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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
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Location: Hawley MA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting to read the prior posts...

one possible problem that i suspect is your tooling knife...yours newly, dare i say, is typically marketed to the 'do it yourselfer' and not a tool an experienced glazier might use on a regular basis...i bought one a few years back and used it once...why only once you ask? because it made the putty curl up rather than stay on the glass!

i use embee knives for the most part...the curved blade avoids hand and wrist fatique....

http://www.hitechglazing.com/manufacturers/40017/

you can try a small about of sarco type m putty by contacting andy roeper at www.winnmountainrestorations.com if you like it as much as i (we!) do, purchase a larger container directly from sarco by calling them at 800-969-7889..

another putty that is readily available at hardware and paint stores is UGL glazol.....it is easy to work with and skins over sufficiently for priming with OIL/ALKYD primer in about 7 days (21 days with water based primer)...sarco skins over in about 3-5 days...dap33 takes about 3-4 weeks...bob yapp swears by glazol if that helps.......

good luck!
....jade
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newly



Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Northeast Texas

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It took about 4 hours, but I was finally able to view most of the excellent video. I was able to determine that my technique was all wrong and the putty is definitely not working correctly. You are right, the "V" on the knife is useless. I will have to postpone this job until I get the putty issue resolved.
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newly



Joined: 28 Apr 2008
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Location: Northeast Texas

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I located some Glazol in Arkansas and after watching the video I was able to do the job to my satisfaction. It's not perfect, but I've seen worse and I could see improvement as I progressed. The glazol definitely made a difference. I had some problems with the putty peeling out on the glass side of my knife. However, I was able to scrape it away without damaging my glaze line. I used a Hyde 1.5 inch putty knife (polished) that is slightly rounded on the edges. Could this cause the putty to peel out on the glass side? I had difficulty following the dado edge on the opposite side of the glass and had to run some of the lines more than once to slim them down enough so that the putty would not be visible from the inside of the window. This left a few tool marks. I think this will improve with experience. The corners gave me a little trouble also but fortunately the putty was workable enough to allow touching up. I glazed the first window laying flat on a card table but I can see that it will go smoother if I stand them up as shown in the video.
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, it sounds like you are on the right track. After you have done ten sash your results will be much better.

If you need the better results now, just practice ten times on the first sash. For best "self-training" plan to glaze the sash once each day for ten days running. Each day complete the glazing, evaluate the results, plan how you will do better the next day with written notes, and take the putty back out. (be sure to use fresh putty each day, rather than the same putty over and over.) During your sleep each night your mind sorts out the experience and settles the eye-hand fine motor coordination and skills into your brain.

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woodturner



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 73
Location: Western Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:07 am    Post subject: plaster? Reply with quote

John,

My recollection from your glazing demo on the conference is that you suggested mixing some plaster dust with the putty before applying it.

I have been doing this, and I am having some trouble, but I am not sure if that is the cause.

The problems I am having are:
1. The putty does not stick well to the glass and primed wood, even after setting for several minutes and doing the perpendicular strokes with the knife to press it into place. So when I do the final tooling, it tends to pull out and tear.

2. The putty is "tearing" when I tool it. For example, when I tool the back side to remove the excess bedding putty, it tears, giving it a sawtooth-like appearance rather than a smooth edge.

I'm using Glazol.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be most welcome. Thanks.
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am currently not recommending plaster of Paris, but whiting (powdered chalk) is good.

In the demonstration, and glazing in general, the purpose is NOT to mix whiting into the putty. The purpose is to have just a little whiting on your hand and on the outer surface of your wad of putty to help keep it from sticking to your hand. The whiting does get mixed into the putty, but that is a side effect. Whiting is compatible with most putties and just a bit mixed in will not cause problems.

If you are purposely mixing more whiting into the putty that is not so good, as it may reduce adhesion to the glazing dado and the glass, and make the putty "shorter" resulting tearing out during tooling.

Occasionally (rarely!) you may have a putty that is too oily, which can be improved by purposely mixing in whiting. But, today's putty products (Sarco, Glazol, etc.) do not need it.

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Last edited by johnleeke on Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
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Location: Hawley MA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my set up for glazing includes three pieces of paper towel, two folded twice and one as is...the two folded pieces are dipped in turpentine and set on my cardboard square tool surface (about 14"x14")..one is for wiping my knife, the other for wiping my hands...the unfolded piece is for further 'clean' wiping...i am a nut about having things set up just so as i am working and have found that the process goes smoothly with the 3 pieces of papertowel....wiping the knife on the turpentine towel allows just enough to give a smooth finish to the putty without saturating and drying it out.....

i lay the used papertowels around the edge of a small metal trash can to dry out then put the paper in the can and cover it til trash day...

DON'T LEAVE OIL SOAKED RAGS BUNCHED IN A PILE as their is the possibility of fire!

best.....
......jade
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vegetable drying oils (alkyd, linseed, tung, etc, and other materials like poly-urethane.) dry by oxidation, or combination with oxygen from the air. Combustion (catching on fire) is simply rapid oxidation. The risk is that the oils in the rags can oxidize fast enough that they catch on fire.

A standard safety procedure is to put oily rags in a metal container of water, with enough water to completely submerge the rags. The water excludes oxygen from the air that causes spontaneous combustion.

I use an empty paint can relabeled for the purpose. In my shop there are only three places for oily rags: in your hand, in your pocket or in the can of water. Oily rags are never set down on the bench or floor, even for a moment.

So, what if the rag spontaneously combusts in your pocket? You will feel it heating up and take care of it.

The technique Jade describes, with a turpentine soaked towel seems safe enough because turpentine does not dry by oxidation, it dries by evaporation, so is not likely to spontaneously combust. It WOULD be consider HIGHLY FLAMMABLE, so must be kept close track of, kept away from open flames, sparks, etc, as I'm sure Jade does.

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blgaarder



Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 4
Location: Saint Paul, MN

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm new to the forum, although I have been reading it for about a year.

Lots of questions in this post.

I have a 1941 brick-face colonial with 30+ casement windows (6-12 8x11 lights each). They are by Pella, and have roll-up screens on the inside. I've looked a little a Marvin replacement windows and have sticker shock, based on the number of windows.

As you might expect, the old putty is either rock-hard or falling off in chunks. Chunks have been replaced when painting was done.

I want to start taking out all of the old putty and putting in Glazol, as time allows. I bought a CR Laurence putty softener, AKA glazing iron.

I will be doing this in place, since I can't really take the windows out.

I have a question or two about John's standard glazing procedure.

"Consolidating oil-resin treatment is suitable for gray weathered wood surfaces or surfaces that are somewhat "soft" or more porous than perfectly sound wood. The traditional recipe for this treatment is linseed oil and turpentine. I no longer use linseed oil because it is susceptible to mold and fungus attack. I now use a 50%-50% mix of mineral spirits and oil-based alkyd resin varnish or a proprietary product (Flood's Penetrol, or similar) Just to confuse us all, there are some combination products that are suitable. (California's Storm Stain Penetrating Wood Stabilizer, or similar)" Does the "or a proprietary product" replace just "oil-based alkyd resin varnish" or the whole part beginning with 50%-50% mix?

Is the California Storm Stain an equal alternative to something like Penetrol?

I notice that Flood's web site only talks about Penetrol as a paint additive.


I would like to remove all of the paint because it has gotten uneven where some was scraped off and then primed and painted. I have tried the ProScraper without doing anything else and it is not going to be the final solution - too hard and slow. It has worked well on the first window where the paint is not adhering well, but doesn't do the job otherwise.

I'll probably try renting a wallpaper steamer like one referred to here.

Do the chemical strippers damage brick?

Has anyone tried Napier Removall, which was talked about at This Old House? http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,386353,00.html photos 1,7,8

I haven't seen much about casement windows, do I need to worry about removing the paint inside what I would call the frame, where the sash sits when closed? It seems to adhere well, protected from the elements.

Some of the windows, especially on the second floor bind a little or a lot. Is this most likely due to settling? Any remedies?

When tooling the glazing compound, do I take into account the 1/16 inch overlap for painting to the line and leave it that much short of the edge of the muntin?


Many thanks in advance

Bruce
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce:

Welcome to the Forum.

Quote:
Is the California Storm Stain an equal alternative to something like Penetrol?


Storm Stain and Penetrol are different.

Penetrol is an oil-based product made of mineral spirits and alkyd resin that penetrates deeply into the wood surface. The mineral spirits evaporate leaving behind the resin that cures and consolidates loose fibers at, and just beneath, the wood surface. After 24-48 hours the treated surface is dry to the touch and ready for light sanding or direct application of paint primer. Penetrol is like alkyd resin oil-based paint without the pigment.

Storm Stain is a waterborne product that contains zinc napthanate and a very tiny amount of resins. Zinc napthanate is a preservative that limits mold, mildew and fungus. The resins help hold the zinc napthanate in the wood, but there is not enough resin to consolidate loose fibers at the surface of the wood. Storm Stain does not penetrate as deeply as oil-based pre-treatments because it is waterborne. After 24-48 hours the water has evaporated , the wood surface is dry, slightly tacky to the touch and ready for paint primer.


Quote:
I notice that Flood's web site only talks about Penetrol as a paint additive.


Other uses are listed on the can. I have been using Penetrol as a pre-treatment for exterior woodwork and window work for decades.

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
CR Laurence putty softener, AKA glazing iron.


To prevent excessive glass breakage be sure to protect the glass from localized heating. One common way is by folding several layers of heavy duty aluminum foil to the exact size of the exposed glass and laying this pad on the glass before applying heat with the putty softener.

This is especially important with the CLR unit since it heats on three edges and one of those three may shine its heat directly on the glass.

When using the CLR unit with aluminum pad we had about 10-15% glass breakage. We shifted to a hot air gun and developed an air baffle that reduced glass breakage to 5-10%, see it here:


more here:
http://flickr.com/photos/41317932@N00/13167189/

then we developed steam deglazing and reduced glass breakage to 1-2%.


more here:
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=133

All of these putty removal methods work and I use each of them occasionally. The ones I now use most are steam to get the glass out, following up with radiant heat from an infrared lamp, or the CLR unit to clean off the wood surfaces of the glazing dado.

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blgaarder



Joined: 19 Aug 2008
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Location: Saint Paul, MN

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

Thanks for the replies and the tip on using the CLR unit.

Did you try making your aluminum foil pad with one of those woven insulating strips that plumbers use behind pipes? Or maybe use some type of high-temperature plastic or Bakelite (if it's still made?)

I put some other questions towards the end of my first post and I'll repeat them here in case someone has answers.

1) Has anyone tried Napier Removall (also sold as Dulux Hydrostrip), which was talked about at This Old House? http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,386353,00.html photos 1,7,8

2) I haven't seen much about casement windows, do I need to worry about removing the paint inside what I would call the frame, where the sash sits when closed? It seems to adhere well, protected from the elements.

3) Some of the windows, especially on the second floor bind a little or a lot. Is this most likely due to settling? Any remedies?

4) When tooling the glazing compound, do I take into account the 1/16 inch overlap for painting to the line and leave it that much short of the edge of the muntin?

and a new one

5) which primer drying time do I go by before glazing, "to the touch" or "recoat"? I imagine the latter.

I'm planning to rent a steamer that looks like the 1500 watt Warner rental unit, though it's labelled 'Lectric. I'll post an update on that. A steamer may not be too useful on my second floor windows, even with a 15 foot hose.

Again, thanks in advance
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm planning to rent a steamer that looks like the 1500 watt Warner rental unit, though it's labeled 'Lectric. I'll post an update on that. A steamer may not be too useful on my second floor windows, even with a 15 foot hose.


We take our steamer up on the exterior scaffolding with us, or run it up under the ladder with a pulley and rope, or set the steamer inside the second storey window on floor, or sometimes up on a wooden box or chair when the 7' hose is not quite long enough.

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
2) I haven't seen much about casement windows, do I need to worry about removing the paint inside what I would call the frame, where the sash sits when closed? It seems to adhere well, protected from the elements.


Many of the methods shown here and in the Save Your Wood Windows report:


http://www.historichomeworks.com/hhw/reports/reports.htm#Windows

will work on casement windows too. I show double hung windows because they are more common.

If the paint on the window frame and sill is in good condition you may not have to remove it. An important part of our window work strategy is to only do what actually needs to be done, and no more.

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