Window Procedure: 9. Sash Glazing & Painting (Video).
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blgaarder



Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 4
Location: Saint Paul, MN

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

A question about doing only what needs to be done.

My main objective is to replace the 67 year old putty that has pulled away from the glass and is falling out in many places.

Should I still plan to strip all of the old paint from the face of the sash if it adheres well? It does have a patchy look from previous scraping of flaking paint and then painting.

I have seen this discussion http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=447 where you say not to putty outside, but I don't have much choice. If I take out a casement window, the whole opening will be open to the elements and thieves for quite a while. Or I would have to build panels to block them.

Of course, I don't know that I would even try to take out a second-floor casement sash. Don't own scaffolding, the screw slots are fully painted, ...

For the most part, I'm just a weekend worker.

The Warner 'Lectric steamer looks like it might be hard to adapt for this work, since the rubber hose is like a compressed air hose and has similar chuch-type fittings. The two end tools are pretty large, the smallest looks like about 3 x 15. I don't now whether there would be any point to using it without some kind of tool, since the hole in the chuck is pretty small.

Thanks again.
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, it is possible to work on sash while still in the frame, and to glaze and paint with the sash in place. I've done it many times. You could just watch the weather, but that could be difficult waiting for good weather on a weekend. An alternative would be to make a temporary panel that fits in the outer woodwork of the window frame to protect the sash from the weather. Then you could paint at will, even into cold weather if you left the sash open a bit to let warm interior air onto the exterior side of the sash.

We sometimes make a light-weight "weather box" of 1"x2" wood firing strips covered with 6-mil plastic sheeting. The box is about a foot deep and a foot wider and higher than the window. There is no plastic on one side. We put the box against the exterior of the wall surrounding and enclosing the window. We hold the box in place against the exterior by bracing it to the window frame or interior wall. So, this little enclosure protects from the weather, get heat from indoors and lets us work on the window frame, exterior casing and sill from the interior. We have used this in the middle of the winter here in Maine and it works great.

If you have casement windows that open to the interior the the weather box would allow glazing from the interior. If your casements open out and are double, you may be able to open one sash, sit on the sill and work on the other sash with one hand. I would rig up with a safety harness if doing that, but it would be easier to remove the sash and work on them at the bench.

If the hinges are painted you would have to remove the paint from the hinges and screws. Steam coming out the end of the hose may be suitable for small areas of paint removal like this.

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lmassimo



Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,
Should the sash channels be painted?

I stripped off most of the old paint from the sash channels. My striping job rid of the decades thick build up paint, but it's not perfect. In some areas I got all the way down to wood, in other spots I got down only to what seems to be the original layer of paint or stain that doesn't want to let go of the wood and I don't want to fight it anymore. I haven't the time or inclination to strip it all the way down to bare wood as if I were refinishing a piece of furniture.

Question is, is it OK to paint the sash channel?

Thanks! Your site and videos have been so helpful.

Lynn
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Tim Storey



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 144
Location: NW Indiana

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just put a full piece of glass (old -wavy) and it had quite a bit of bow in it. We actually took some of the bow out by holding it tight with the points, but I'm afraid it might break. Now I'm thinking it would have been smarter to turn the glass around so that it was concave to the inside of the house. That way there wouldn't be a large gap at the bottom begging for condensation to settle into the bedding compound, but we wouldn't have stressed it either.

On a window with a kerf cut in the top rail (to accept glass), is the glass supposed to be cut long enough to sit in that slot, or is that just to hold some putty -without the normal rabbet/beveled glazing compound?

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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See the discussion on painting sash channels:
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1265

The glass goes up into the meeting rail slot.

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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 145
Location: Fort Kent, ME

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a dilemma. Over the last 3 years ive been doing 2-to-5 window restorations a summer. Ive done sashes, storms, basement windows, etc. Upwards of 8-12 total windows so far.

My latest was a basement window (3-lite)... pretty simple job. But the DAP33 putty wont skin over. This has never been a problem before. The stuff is usually good to go for primer in 3-4 weeks. In this case the putty is still "wet". Its been almost a month. parts have skinned, but other areas still have a gooey film.

Now understand that ive worked with the 33 putty alot over the last 3 years. I know about kneading, warming, temp. working it, bedding in etc (John your how-to article is pretty much exactly how i do it... I arrived at the technique through trial and error over a 2 year period!)

So my question is, why the hell wont this glazing job skin over? Ive had the sash in the basement (dry this time of year) and now have moved it up into the den sitting on a big cast iron radiator. (warm and dry!)

Any pointers on this one? Im not in the mood to pull the face-glazing out and redo it.
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't use DAP33 myself, but whenever I am teaching and training about window work I ask what putty everyone uses and they usually all say DAP33. Then I ask if they like it, and most say they don't. Why? They always say "inconsistent, sometimes sticky, sometimes too stiff, always taking weeks on end to skin over."

So, your experience seems "normal" if not acceptable.

The heat from the radiator may be making the non-drying oil in the DAP33 rise to the surface, if so it may stay gooey for quite a while.

I suggest waiting until you are in a different mood and redoing the face glazing. You might want to shift to a different putty like Sarco Type M, see this discussion for places to order large and smaller amounts:

http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=912

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jade



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 785
Location: Hawley MA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am always so impressed when homeowners take on the task of restoring their windows--good for you!

i have worked with many different putties over the years and have found sarco multi glaze to be consistent, easy to tool and it skins over sufficiently for priming in 72 hours in a warm dry area...the manufacturer suggests you can skip priming and paint directly over the putty with latex or oil based finish paint...i opt to go the priming route........

removing the dap33 may be the best way to go but may i suggest you try stacking the sash so there's a space between each--i use little 2 inch sticks--and have a fan blowing on them for a 5 or 6 hours a day for a couple of days...you should notice after two days that the putty has skinned over...if not, i'm afraid you may want to go the sarco route....

sarco putty is typically only available in 4 or 5 gallon buckets...andy at www.winnmountainrestorations.com sells quart size bags...

good luck and let us know how things work out....
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:59 pm    Post subject: Old Tiime Window Putty Reply with quote

Did you always wonder how they puttied back in the old days and why they did it that way?

Now you can learn from Ralph Waring, who, back in 1938 knew a thing or two about putty and glazing, when he wrote all about it for Popular Science magazine. He even gives recipes and methods for making your own putty, although I would not use lead paste if I were you.


Get the whole article right here:
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA90&lr=&id=diYDAAAAMBAJ&num=50&as_brr=0&as_pt=MAGAZINES

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Tim Storey



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 144
Location: NW Indiana

PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgive me if I've missed this. I'm looking for advice on using shellac, old style varnish, lacquer vs. polyurethane. I've found quite a bit of good info on the web, but I'd like to get some pro advice. I'm in the process of setting up a window restoration shop in NW Indiana. I'm leaning toward the "natural" finishes where possible, but I also want to be practical. Thanks.
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Tim Storey



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
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Location: NW Indiana

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post with the Popular Science magazine. I'd recommend looking through the whole thing including the back pages with ads.

Besides the "traditional finishes" question above, I've got a practicality question on putty. We're using the Allback putty to start with, but we'll be looking at the other brands mentioned on this forum. It's nice that the Allback putty is so soft, but my concern is in handling and washing windows. Even if the homeowner waits several months before washing, as I think was suggested, I'm afraid it is going to be difficult to avoid damaging the putty, which I imagine will still be fairly soft. Maybe it will set up sooner than I think, or maybe that is a problem with soft putties that stay soft. Any thoughts?

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clear finish on interior, paint on exterior of sash:

Finish and Putty Schedule:

strip to bare wood
woodwork repairs if needed
prepare surface of wood (cleaning, sanding, etc.)
stain interior if needed
prime interior with thinned down varnish
coat interior with full coat varnish
seal or oil exterior if needed (including glazing dados)
prime exterior with paint primer
set and glaze glass
coat interior with one or two coats of varnish
prime putty if needed
paint exterior with two coats


On the exterior side of sash pigmented paint is usual because it provides better durability than clear finishes. Historically, some sash were faux painted with glazes and graining to match varnished interior woodwork to get the better durability. If clear finishes must be used on the interior of sash or the exterior window parts plan on more frequent routine finish and putty maintenance, perhaps at least every other year.

I use alkyd-resin or long-oil "spar varnish" oil-base varnish for sash interiors. I would not use poly-urethane because it does not take spot maintenance well. I have not worked with the acrylic water-based varnishes, but I suspect they would not last as long as oil-based varnishes. I have been testing shellac, which seems to require renewal every 2 to 4 years.

For clear finishes on the interior face of sash prep the surface by stripping and cleaning down to bare wood. Apply penetrating pigmented stains if needed to get the color required. Apply a thinned down coat to act as a penetrating "primer," apply one or two topcoats lapping down into the glazing dado. Color the putty with dry pigments to match the interior color of the stain. Bed the glass in colored putty. Apply colored putty in the usual way and tool to finish. Add one more top coat of finish on the interior face of the sash, lapping across the narrow line of bedding putty and onto the glass slightly.

Painting soft putty:
Use a medium-soft or soft brush and a light touch. It is possible to paint freshly applied putty, such and Allback's, and paint right away without damaging the flat surface of the putty. Some American paints do not flow out of the brush easily, which can cause problems with soft putty. If you are using Allback paint it is thin enough to flow out of the brush easily. American paints often require a "flow" additive, such as Flood's Penetrol for oil-base paints or FlowTrol for water-base paints. Just start doing it and adapt your materials and technique to give the result you want.

Brushes for Sash Painting:
My standard most-used brush is a "Purdy"-brand sash brush that is 3" wide and 5/8" thick on smaller lights. I use a 4" or even 5" house painting brush that is 3/4" or 1" thick for single-light sash with long lines of putty. The bigger brushes hold more paint so less time is spent dipping. The "sash brush" (about 1 1/2" x 3/4") provided in the Allback line is too stiff for me. Some sash painters use a 1" round brush with a conical shape at the bristle end for sash work, rotating the brush during the stroke, but this method takes too long for me because the brush does not hold enough paint, and the extra dipping slows down the work. I did use it once for tiny 3" x 3" lights and it worked well.

Best advice:
Have a variety of small to medium size brushes on hand, try out two or three and use the one that gives best results.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought


Last edited by johnleeke on Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:39 pm; edited 3 times in total
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mcconney



Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Posts: 5
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:16 am    Post subject: Mixed window finishes inside verses outside Reply with quote

johnleeke wrote:
Clear finishes on sash & windows:

On the exterior side of sash pigmented paint is usual because it provides better durability that clear finishes. If clear finishes must be used on exterior window parts plan on more frequent routine paint and putty maintenance, perhaps at least every other year.

I use alkyd-resin oil-base varnish for sash interiors. I would not use poly-urethane because it does not take spot maintenance well. I have not worked with the acrylic water-based varnishes, but I suspect they would not last as long as oil-based varnishes. I have been testing shellac, which seems to require renewal every 2 to 4 years.

For clear finishes on the interior side of sash prep the surface by stripping and cleaning down to bare wood. Apply penetrating stains if needed to get the color required. Apply a thinned down coat to act as a penetrating "primer," apply one or two topcoats lapping down into the glazing dado. Color the putty with dry pigments to match the interior color of the stain. Bed the glass in a bed of colored putty. Apply colored putty in the usual way and tool to finish.
.


Hey John thanks for this post. It pretty much covers most of my questions.

I want to do stain/clear on my window interiors and opaque stain on the exteriors. The house from 1929 and the sashes are in good shape.

Please advise on my current plan:
strip to bare wood
stain interior
Penatrol exterior(including glazing dados)
prim exterior(including glazing dados)
top coat interior
set and glaze glass
stain exterior

Thanks again,
Shamus
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johnleeke
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks good. I would do another top coat on interior after glazing--lap onto glass.
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newly



Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Northeast Texas

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just opened a new can of Glazol that I bought last year and found that it had dried hard on top and around the edges. Probably had been on the store shelf a long time prior to my purchase. The remainder will glaze but is a little stiff. Can this be diluted with a small amount of linseed oil or would it be inadvisable to use it?
Jim
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