Window Procedure: 9. Sash Glazing & Painting (Video).
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an historical excerpt. White lead is no longer available and is not recommended for residential situations. The oil, pigment and sand method might hold some merit for testing and development.
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Skuce



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough.

The easiest place I've found white lead in modern times.....

The white "corrosion" on your cars' battery terminal.

The true DIY method. lol

Funny how many ppl just blow that off into the air they're breathing, or fiddle with it in their hands and have no idea what it actually is.

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Drew Skuce
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the latest video on Window Sash Painting:


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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Window Sash Glazing video, in two parts:



Comments or questions? Got a glazing tip or trick you want the share? Click "post reply" below.

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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey John,

Since you're the Penetrol advocate here (nothing wrong with that, it's great stuff!) I want to pick your brain a bit; I was reading my can and it (of course) is recommended as an additive for primer to increase adhesion. Now wouldn't it make sense to have the best of both worlds by using the recommended ratio for penetrol/primer and priming the entire sash (rabbetts etc) with said penetrol/primer blend?

In my thinking you'd end up with sash and rabbetts that are both prepped/sealed and primed in one step, with the added benefit of the primer actually being bonded more strongly and deeper into the wood than if it was applied over a previously penetrol-prepped sash/rabbett. Also this would theoretically be a "save-a-step" that could very likely be a "better method".

Just an idea. What do ya think?
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not advocate for Penetrol. It is just one of several products and materials that can be used for a penetrating reinforcing oil pre-treatment.

Yes, you can put Penetrol in an oil-based primer, and that will change the characteristics of the primer, perhaps it will be a change for the good in some situations.

My strategy is to do the pre-treatment as a separate step so that it is entirely under my control. I can mix and apply the pre-treatment to achieve specific results that would not be possible if a product like Penetrol is simply added to the primer.

By mixing the oil-based material or product with more or less mineral spirits I control the amount of oil left behind in the wood as the mineral spirits evaporate back out of the wood. By applying more or less of the mix I control how deeply in penetrates the wood. I can apply more mix to areas where more is needed. I can let the mix soak in for a certain number of minutes and then wipe off the excess, and the remaining soaks in leaving empty and open cells of wood at the surface to provide a key for the primer to come. If the sun is shining on the surface, or the shop temperature is high or low I can adapt the mix and it's application.

Why go to all this thought and trouble?

In this way the success of my work is governed by my methods and procedures, which are under my own control. By simply applying standard products, success depends more on the product manufacturers. To speak plainly, I do not trust the manufacturers, and for good reason. They are constantly changing their formulations, canceling products, and their only interest is making money, they do not care if my work is successful. I am not saying they or their products are bad, sometimes I need and use them, I just don't depend on them.

I have developed my work over the past few decades to be method and procedure oriented, rather than product oriented. In fact, my work is now pretty much product independent. I can achieve success using a wide range of materials and products.

I think this is a good place to be right about now, because I hear a lot more complaints about paint products these days, more that ever before. But, I'm not complaining because I don't depend on products. I don't mean to brag, but I can do good work with $10-a-can fake-paint from Home Despot and make effective wood-decay void filler from bubble gum, nail polish and candy bar wrappers.

How is that possible? By using effective methods and procedures.

Why is that necessary? Not everyone can afford $50 paint and $200 epoxy.

At the same time, it's worth using the best materials possible, when you can.

Penetrol mixed with primer? Sure, that can work.

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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmmm... Equivocation.

Im not concerned about "products" if they do not help me, but let's face it, without "products" we would have to formulate everything we use. Thats not a problem, but you recommend a product.

I get it that we dont need to rely on "products" and that sometimes we use "ingredients" sometimes "products"... semantics.

"[Kool-aid] mixed with Primer? Sure, that can work"

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Im not sure Im understanding the reason behind the double-talk walk-around back-tracking dissertation youve posted...but who are we fooling?


We are fooling ourselves into doing better work. Yes, it does seem upside down crazy. They are products, but there is no magic in the product, as the marketers imply, so use the products like they are a basic material, like wood or stone and create a system that is good. This is something that happens within the mind of the product/material user, and it has a definite real effect in the physical object of the work.

OK, adding Penetrol to an oil-base akyd-resin primer:
this can be good. It increases the binder in the primer, there is more binder to soak into the bare wood. I've done it, and in many cases it works to increase the adhesion of the primer to the wood. But, the primer also has to act as an interface with the top coat. As it is, the primer is designed to do that best with no additives. The more more Penetrol you add the further the primer gets away from being a good interface with the topcoat. Can adding too much be a practical problem? I have done this myself on perhaps 200 exterior paint jobs and window jobs over the past 30 years. In five cases we had a limited problem of loss of adhesion between the primer and top coat that we found was caused by adding too much. I have consulted on five paint peeling cases, where too much was the cause of the problem. More is definitely not better. Don't go over the recommendations of the manufacturer, and much less than that is probably better.

For the last decade I've avoided even those few problems by doing the separate pre-treatment. Then the primer can act exactly as intended by its maker.

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Mike-in-Maine



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks john, and you'll notice i edited my post just as you posted your reply. (I really dont want to come off as hostile as it may have appeared)

You make an excellent point that I never considered. and THATS why I asked!

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Last edited by Mike-in-Maine on Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
without "products" we would have to formulate everything we use.


True enough. Over the past three years I've come across three window shops that make their own glazing putty, and one house in Massachusetts where they made their own paint for the exterior woodwork and windows. In all cases it is because they are exasperated with the poor character and quality of the available "products," and inspired by a can-do attitude.

And this is exactly what Hans Allback did in Sweden 25 years ago. The modern paint industry "product" quality had dropped so much that he started making his own paint and putty. He made his own and managed to build a thriving window trades business doing it. Of course, now he manufactures and offers his paint and putty 'products,' and there are some right here at the forum who find the downside of the 'product' even though the material itself is exactly the same. What's up with that?

There are now many building trades shops doing the same thing in this country, doing all their work with basic and mostly local materials, and even schools teaching how to do it. Our economy and culture is changing rapidly. Those who know how to do it all themselves with more local resources will thrive. I think all of us independent tradespeople and small shop operators are in a good position--we can turn on a dime and do what needs to be done.

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
thanks john, and you'll notice i edited my post just as you posted your reply. (I really dont want to come off as hostile as it may have appeared)


Don't worry about that. This is a true Forum, where discussion develops new ideas and learning takes place.

As one of my high-school teachers used to say, "You know you are beginning to learn when you get uncomfortable. The worse it gets, the more you learn."

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sswiat



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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find myself going from a paint to a line to razor/straightedge cutting as Duffy Hoffman and Hans Allback showed me. I found that personally I can paint much faster painting on the glass and cutting away to a perfect (or almost perfect) site line inside and out. My cut away time is pretty fast as like anything you develop a technique.

Also, 2-3 (if not more finish coats depending on color) I can be much quicker going on the glass (just my personal preference) and cutting back. If anyone is helping me and they may not be the best painter, I can have them go on the glass and I can do the cut back. The clean site lines (even with majorly contrasting colors look clean and crisp) and my sash lines all look consistent from sash to sash. What I was finding was those areas of "oops I went off the line" that needed cutting back anyway. It most cases it is likely that I will cut back before the final coat and then paint to the line. I find that you can get a great finish line that way.


Hans Allback was a big advocate for painting well onto the glass as he felt that you get a thicker paint coat at the glass putty line than painting to the line as you naturally have to back off to reduce the amount of paint leaving the brush. Also, with Allback , since you have to spread the paint thin and can work on newly glazed (soft) putty, any precise cutting in with a brush may (or likely would ) drag the putty.

I just like (as my customers do) the amazingly tight & clean site line especially on natural interior finish window sash.

Just my preference.
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sswiat



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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretreatment.

What are your thoughts on doing an purified (Allback) linseed oil "burn in" as a pretreatment (like done with Allback paints) to alkyd primers? I would not do with an acrylic primer as fear of adhseion issues (that oil and water thing).

Also, I was looking through the numerous posts and may have overlooked it but on most commercial jobs the primer is spec'd as a water based primer. Any thoughts on pretreatments with that? No pretreatments are spec'd out I find.

Although I may not always agree with the spec's I tend to follow them as if there is a problem I can point my finger back...
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Mike-in-Maine



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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sswiat, thats my technique as well. I can go pretty fast and have the razor cut back dialed in quite nicely. I also like that if you time the cut back right (i.e. quick, before the paint skins) you will get a better seal between the glass and the putty and paint. My thinking and experienceis the cut back pushes the paint back and it can create better seal at the paint/glass/putty interface.

I have paper towel in one hand, razor in the other. Push back clean 100% perpendicular to the putty, lift straight up just as the razor arrives at the putty. (do this a few times down the line) ... Wipe razor clean. Repeat. Awesome results.

And youre also right sswiat, the end results are astounding. Super straight sharp and beautifully clean results. The contrast between a customers "previous" glazing job and my work is breathtaking. When I bring them my "sample" sashes (just a random sash and storm from my own house) the jaws drop and the "wow"s come out.
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sswiat



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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My cut method appears to be different. I use a straight edge joint compound knife on the interior and a glass scraper type straightedge on the exterior with a cut technique that runs parallel to the putty. The cut process leaves a 1/16 to 1/8 )depending on how chewed up the rabbet is) paint on glass line on both sides. In any event it looks great and usually gets compliments for how neat it looks.
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