Window Procedure: 9. Sash Glazing & Painting (Video).
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Tim Storey



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 144
Location: NW Indiana

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tried the cut back method since I saw a video of Hans doing it so well. Granted he's been doing it for a while, so I didn't expect to be nearly as quick. I'm generally using Allback paint. It just didn't work at all for me, but I know I'm doing something wrong. Here are my thoughts/problems:

1. With wet or dry paint, I could not get a clean removal even with a couple of different new razors. There was always something left on the glass. It's wavy glass, but I figure most is. Maybe the paint was too wet or too dry.
I was using the parallel scraping method like Steve, haven't tried perp.

2. Most of the windows I've seen have such shallow rabbets that I have to go all the way to the inside edge with putty to avoid dragging it out -to get the most thickness. So the paint is what defines the sight line. What I'd like to is leave the putty back 1/16, then scrape/paint to the wood line, but I've given up on that. Maintaining a good reference line for scraping is tough, since the putty line itself isn't perfect, and maybe that's my downfall.

3. So here's what I've fallen back to time and time again -tape. I'm not proud of it, and I'll keep trying the other methods. I use a yellow tape that gives very clean lines. I put light paper under the sash so I can see my reference line well, and have even used a thin Sharpee line drawn on the inside (place 1/16 or so strip against inside edges, then make a few marks for taping the other side of the glass, it's pretty quick). I pull the tape up immediately after applying the final coat. Maybe this is the year I'll get away from tape!

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sswiat



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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Location: Cambria, New York

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Tim:

I know what you are talking about. My employee has a difficult time with it. For some reason it is one of those things that may just come naturally (aka dumb luck).

Likely it is the angle of your razor or pressure. I hold the razor somewhat skewed and cut almost with the very corner. It doesn't seem to matter if the paint is just dry 4 hours or 4 days. with just the right pressure the straightedge slides allows me to cut away.

On natural sash I cut putty back about 1/16 below the sight line so when I paint on the glass it cannot be seen from the inside. When painting I will get closer to the rabbet edge but leave paint 1/16 interior and exterior.

I will see if can get a photo to you.
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johnleeke
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Location: Portland, Maine, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike-in-Maine reports on using Sarco Type M putty:

May 16th
Well, Here are my preliminary thoughts on the Sarco Type M glazing putty as compared to DAP 33. I know this has been beaten to death in other threads and elsewhere on the 'net, but im too lazy to go there!

skin-over time of Sarco-M is definately a plus. 2-3 days vs 3 weeks for D33.

Tooling: I actually prefer D33. I cringe to say this, and I honestly dont WANT to say it, but I find DAP33 a pleasure to work with. The toolability is (to me) easier and quicker. Sarco-M seems to need an hour or more of "breathing time" out of the container along with the usual pre-kneeding, before it is fully toolable. D33 has better tensile/elastic qualities than Sarco-M.

Tooling Sarco-M tends to require occasional oiling of the knife, else the putty drags and crawls with the knife. DAP33 clings better to the sash and less to the knife, and tools out smoother. (I believe this is due to the talc in it)

The Sacro putty does improve with air-time and after a day, my blob of putty was much more elastic than when it first came out of the bag. I did 12 lites the first day, re-bagged, and did 6 more lites the second day. The Sacro-M on the second day was much closer to DAP33 in consistency, with improved elasticity and tooling, less tearing and better adhesion, but still not quite on par with the D33 in these depts.

Temp range between 65-75 F.

For production work, I cannot use the DAP33 due to the ridiculously long skin-over time, but other than that, I feel it is a better product with regards to working it, applying it and tooling it.

It has taken me some re-learning time to adjust my technique for the Sarco-M, and I am not entirely happy with how long its taking me to complete a 6-lite sash. the Sarco-M is slightly messier and tends to litter a bit when kneading the putty ball... (no its not dry, it just likes to release very very tiny shreds when you work it.)

finished glazing results of Sarco-M are fine. However ive noticed that it skins over much like a latex glazing... the oily film on the glass when left to dry definately knifes off as very "latex" like.... this is startling... the skinned putty has a latex feel and the residue skins to a latex-like substance. I dont like that and wonder whats in the stuff?

All-in-all I will use Sarco-M but will seriously consider Sarco Dual Glaze on upcoming jobs once my Sarco-M runs out. Anyone have dry-time and tooling comparisons for Dual Glaze?



May 21st
Sarco M Update:

A few observations as our cold spell has passed and we're into the "nice" weather now... (NOTE: my shop doesnt have heat)

Out of the bag the Sarco-M definitely needs an hour or two to breath... After I remove it from the bag, I thoroughly knead it to incorporate all the oil, (a good 5 minutes at least) then I flatten it out like a pizza dough by hand... (about 1/2 - 3/4" thick).... Letting it breath like this for 1-2 hrs seems to make a big difference.

Temp 75-80 F.

The first day of use (after above breathing) I still find the Type M has poor elasticity and not very strong in tensile strength. However, after a day or two and up to a week later, as it oxidizes out a little, it seems to come into its own.

One five pound bag of Type M glazed (4) 6-lite sashes, with a small plum-sized ball of putty left over. Towards the end of the 5 pounds, after over a week, the putty was a dream to work with. Out of the bag through day 2, its not very impressive compared to other putties.

That being said, I've adjusted my technique accordingly. The latest sash I glazed (6-lite) took me 90 minutes. (which is way better than the 3 hrs for one sash I started at a few weeks ago!)

Normally I crank out sashes much faster, but with all the lites on a single sash its not so quick. Granted three hours is ridiculous, but 90 minutes from start to finish (bed, secure & finish glaze) isnt terrible. (it pains me though, because I can do a set of 2-over-1 sashes in half that time)

What did I change in my technique? Less points, and adopting the GO FOR IT attitude when tooling the finish glazing.
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 6:52 am    Post subject: Putty Heat Box Reply with quote

With smaller panes, say l0x12 or less, you can use a heat box for the putty. This is a wooden box with an incandescent light bulb or other small heat source inside, and a piece of thick glass on the top. You roll the putty out on the glass and the putty heats up and softens in short order. Then you take the pane of glass in both hands and nip off a line of putty onto the edge of the glass, rotate the glass and nip off putty onto each edge, flip the glass and do the same for the outer lines of putty. Then set the pane with its putty into the sash. The putty is warm so it seats into the bedding easier, tools easily and quicker and bonds well to the rabbet and glass.
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 569
Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have more experience with Dual Glaze than we do with Type M.
We learned with the Dual Glaze and like it very much. It dries or skins over lots slower than Type M. It keeps well (relative to how much we use) with just being in a sealed bucket. (no water) It tools great but still needs to be kneaded. I/we don't time our kneading, we just do it till the putty's warm enough. We use it under oil paint. We wait a couple days to paint over, or untill it skins or gets stable. Time depends on color of oil we'll be covering it with. It comes in white (off white) and gray. Again we use the color appropriate for paint color.

We began using Type M when architext for project we started doing were Specifying Latex exterior finihes. Type M works well when covered with Latex. It tools very well. We buy it in 5 gallon pails and keep it cover with plain water, since it will crust with simply trying to seal it with the lid. Pull some out of the water, knead it for the time it takes to get it to the right temp and texture, apply it and tool it. If it drags, it needs more kneading. I don't think any of us have every oiled our knives. When its ready it's ready.

I used Dap 33 long ago and it seems to be engineered for DIY'ers. It spread too easily, dries to quickly and I've seen it fail often.

We paint over Type M with Latex the next day. We paint over Dual Glaze only with Oil,usually 1 coat, no primer in two to three days. We use Dual Glaze Gray or white depending on the paint color we'll paint over it.

Just like an old timer glazier told me. Don't over analyse. Just do it!
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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 145
Location: Fort Kent, ME

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sschoberg wrote:

We paint over Type M with Latex the next day.


No primer huh? Im tempted but very hesitant to skip the primer on the glazing. I'll be using SW Exterior (black) for the sashes and if I dont have to prime the glazing thats great, but I have to prime the sashes anyway.

Is wrinkling really a problem? Im just very very leery of not priming the putty. I dont want my glazing OR reputation to both fail in 5 years.
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You won't have to wait for five years for wrinkling. Wrinkling of the putty surface due to priming usually happens within a day or two, before the sash leave the shop, so you would have a chance to save your reputation.

If you're using a new procedure or new combination of materials you can always test out different primers and paints on a single line of putty and see what happens before you prime and paint the whole run of sash. A lot, perhaps most, of this depends on drying rates and environmental conditions like temp, RH and air movement over the putty and paint surfaces, which varies widely from one shop to another or from one time of the year to another.

I keep an old sash on hand just for this sort of testing. It's just the ticket when an architect, or owner says I must use a specific paint or putty that I don't know; or a window specialist in another part of the country says some particular thing is working for them. In the end I have to figure out what works for me in my shop for my customers.

Last fall I did a side-by-side test comparing no putty primer, and two kinds of primer, also showing wrinkling and how to prevent it, and the section that was supposed to wrinkle didn't--go figure (the shop was cool and dry, so maybe wrinkling happens more when it's hot and humid.) I shot video of the test, I'll see if I can get that posted. I'll try another test this summer when it's hot and humid.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought


Last edited by johnleeke on Tue May 25, 2010 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If it drags, it needs more kneading. I don't think any of us have every oiled our knives. When its ready it's ready.


If you put oil or solvent on your putty knife remember that changes the character of the putty right at the surface. It's like adding a large proportion of another ingredient to that outer layer of putty. I've visited three big sash shops over the years and the glaziers weren't doing this--at least while we were there. (you never know, maybe they're thinking, here come these yahoos, we better not give away our secrets, then when the yahoos leave they resume dipping their putty knives in oil?) They did hesitate occasionally to carefully clean off their putty knives, and their knives were shinny, shinny, shinny.

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by pen and thought best words are wrought
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jeremyjones



Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently attended a window workshop at Bob Yapp's Belvedere school. He had us dipping our knives in boiled linseed oil before applying Glazol.

Granted, I've only done a half dozen sashes, but the final product looks good. Anyone have bad experiences with this system?

When I notice a buildup of the linseed oil on the surface I remove it will paper towel then tool again.

--Jeremy
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rncx



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim Storey wrote:
I've tried the cut back method since I saw a video of Hans doing it so well. Granted he's been doing it for a while, so I didn't expect to be nearly as quick. I'm generally using Allback paint. It just didn't work at all for me, but I know I'm doing something wrong. Here are my thoughts/problems:

1. With wet or dry paint, I could not get a clean removal even with a couple of different new razors. There was always something left on the glass. It's wavy glass, but I figure most is. Maybe the paint was too wet or too dry.
I was using the parallel scraping method like Steve, haven't tried perp.

2. Most of the windows I've seen have such shallow rabbets that I have to go all the way to the inside edge with putty to avoid dragging it out -to get the most thickness. So the paint is what defines the sight line. What I'd like to is leave the putty back 1/16, then scrape/paint to the wood line, but I've given up on that. Maintaining a good reference line for scraping is tough, since the putty line itself isn't perfect, and maybe that's my downfall.

3. So here's what I've fallen back to time and time again -tape. I'm not proud of it, and I'll keep trying the other methods. I use a yellow tape that gives very clean lines. I put light paper under the sash so I can see my reference line well, and have even used a thin Sharpee line drawn on the inside (place 1/16 or so strip against inside edges, then make a few marks for taping the other side of the glass, it's pretty quick). I pull the tape up immediately after applying the final coat. Maybe this is the year I'll get away from tape!


i don't see anything wrong with the tape method, as long as you pull it up while the paint is still wet so that it can flow back to a clean edge. i do the same thing.

i can paint a straight line if i have to, but i would avoid the need for skill where a simple alternative method can accomplish the same goal ;).
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe your having trouble with wrinkling becasue your using BLO on your knife. after all like John says, if your adding oil your changing the surface characteristics. And then you must wait for the BLO to quit fighting with the putty so it dries before painting.

No the older glazier, don't oil their knives-----well who really knows what everyone does in the privacy of thier own little worlds. So oil up and prime away people.

I'm grouchy and going on vacation starting this Friday---Thank God! Two Weeks!!!!
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Mike-in-Maine



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 145
Location: Fort Kent, ME

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok sheesh... let me make a few reiterations.... 65F and Sarco-M and you DO benefit from a tiny film of BLO on the knife... is 65F normal working temp? hell no! (but when you have a non-heated shop and its 55F outside you dont have too many options!)

above 75F I havnt used anything on my knife. And lately its freekin HOT here.. today was into the 90's, yesterday into the high 80's... sweatshop comes to mind... Sarco is a much better putty when hot vs cold.

I normally dont use BLO or any oil on my knife.. but the cold temps sometimes leave few other choices.
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sarco is a much better putty regardless of temperature. We knead the putty not only to mix it but primarily knead it to warm it. Mixing it is a result of our warming it.

Sarco has been around for a very long time and used by a big group of glaziers in the midwest, going way back. Professional glazier that use Dap 33 are few if any and most of em don't care about painting putty cuz they don't.

the reason good putty is hard to work with is because it lasts a long time. The reason why Dap33 is easy to use is because it doesn't last very long.

And I have no data to back this up other than with my own early use of Dap 33 i have failures.

But John is correct in that each of us have to make our own decisions on the products and procedures we incorporate. Here's my take on utilizing information I hear from others. Untill I make sense of them, they are just opinion. But an opinion sounds good, makes sense, I'll try it in my own shop. IF I see someone using their info that they give me or I see their product where they use their opinionated information, I am more apt to try it, even when its difficult. I view difficulties only as challenges, as long as I think their valid. But then, I love challenges.

I'm certainly not afraid to try something new, if I've made sense of it and it fits my operation. I won't disqualify a new idea just becuase it doesn't seem to fit or its difficult.

This probly seems difficult to understand and maybe I haven't explained it sufficiently. But you should be able to get the drift.

And it may just be an experience thing. Once a guy or team gets into some action (busy) procedures get better difined and all the knowledge and opinions you gather will come to the surface in a more organized and defined way. The busier you get the more defined and organized your accumilated information and experience will be. And if you lucky enough to have enough business to really tax your schedule, your procedures will get even more defined. And yes there will still be plenty of time and energy for real quality work.

But untill your comfortable with any procedure it still is just an idea!
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I normally dont use BLO or any oil on my knife.. but the cold temps sometimes leave few other choices.


In the glazing video I shot last November



my unheated shop was about 40 to 45 degrees. I don't mention that in the video, but you can see that I'm having difficulty wiping the putty bedding putty into the glazing rabbet because it is cold and stiff, despite some series kneading, it cools off quickly once on the sash.(not made any easier with the arthritis in my thumbs!) Also, you'll notice I'm tooling rather slowly, because the putty is a little stiff at that temp and is not 'flowing' readily as it does at higher temps.

OK, so I didn't mention the cold temps in the video, but a do-it-yourselfer sent email, and said he thought it looked like the putty was cold, and said his solution for this in his unheated shop was, after placing the putty on the sash, to warm it up a bit with a hair dryer. I was doing more glazing in December (shop temps 35 to 40) and warmed the putty up with my hot air gun and also tried the infra-red heat lamp, and both worked great, with easy tooling. The hot air gun was a faster because it has instant heat and the infra-red lamp takes a couple minutes to warm up. I tried the infra-red because it's less likely to stress and crack the glass. My final method was to keep the glass in a 'warm box' at 90 degrees before glazing, use the hot air gun set on about 90 degrees, warm the putty on the sash for about one minute, tool it, and then bring the sash into a heated space for curing of the putty and painting. Added time for dealing with the cold temps during glazing was ten minutes setup, and one minute per sash, and it cut the glazing time about three minutes per sash due to faster tooling. Break even on the time after five sash, then a net gain of two minutes per sash after that.

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John

by hammer and hand great works do stand
by pen and thought best words are wrought


Last edited by johnleeke on Wed May 26, 2010 8:32 am; edited 2 times in total
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sschoberg



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Plymouth, Indiana

PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some things should not be attempted without the proper tools and also the proper work area. There is nothing more frustrating then to try and make do. I learned a long time ago to take the time or spend the money for proper tools. Having appropriate work area is just another tool. Make adjustment to get your work area warm. If you shop is so big you can't afford to heat it then build a closet or smaller room. Plastic curtain walls will do it, as will those little buddy heater and a tank of propane.

Carry your putty back and forth with you from your home to your work area. Just as you would'nt try to pound a nail without a hammer, why would you try to glaze with cold putty.

Message of the day----Take the time needed to create the most important tool which is your work place. Even on a very tight budget it can be done.
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