Window Procedure: 9. Sash Glazing & Painting (Video).
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a reference in the 1900 edition of Cassell's Cyclopaedia Of Mechanics on polishing with whiting to clean the glass after glazing :

"In glazing a window lay the sash on a bench, and with the thumb run along the rebate a bed of soft putty; this is called back puttying. Next lay the piece of glass in its place, and with the second finger gently press along all sides near the rebate to get an even bed. Now get more putty, of a stiffer kind, and run along on all sides. Stand the sash on end, slightly inclined to the vertical, and cut in with the glazing knife (see Fig. 1), allowing the knife to rest on the arris of the wood rebate, inclined at an angle according to the depth of the rebate. Work along each side from the mitre, finishing off in the centre each time. No difficulty will be experienced if the putty is of the proper consistency, but if the putty is too oily it will drag. A little dry whiting in a dusting brush will remove all loose putty after glazing."

Read more: http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/mechanics/Cyclopaedia/Glazing-With-Putty.html#ixzz1tcwXpwAU


http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/mechanics/Cyclopaedia/Glazing-With-Putty.html

It also shows some interesting shapes for putty knives:

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jeremyjones



Joined: 04 Apr 2010
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Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:46 am    Post subject: Whiting Reply with quote

Thanks John for the whiting tip.

I recently started using whiting to clean off the glass as it was a little hard to find. I tracked it down at a stained glass supply store. I believe it was around 12$ for ten pounds of whiting. That will last a looong time.

Worked great. I actually wait a day or two before cleaning the glass, but it even took off my sharpie numbers I use to label the glass!
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mattswabb



Joined: 01 Nov 2010
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Location: Elyria, Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought my whiting off ebay from this seller:

http://myworld.ebay.com/kelp4less

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Calcium-Carbonate-Limestone-Powder-5-pounds-CaCO3-Lime-/350446134029?pt=Fertilizer_Soil_Amendments&hash=item519837a30d

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Hannah



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Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'd never think that something as simple and inexpensive as chalk powder would be so hard to get! I had to go to 3 or 4 hardware stores to find some.
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Putty & Glazing Compound Ingredients. Reply with quote

(5/4/15. Updates on this info is over at the Save America's Windows Forum:
http://saveamericaswindows.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5224)

What is in your favorite putty:

Putty and ingredients % by weight (comments by JCL)

Allback Linseed Putty
Calcium carbonate 65-45 (aggregate filler, aka whiting)
Linseed oil, raw 35-55 (drying oil binder)
(source: product MSDS)

Sarco Multi-Glaze Type M
Calcium Carbonate (aggregate filler)
Ground Limestone (aggregate filler)
Soybean Oil (drying oil binder)
Naphthenic Oil (promotes rapid skinning)
Linseed Oil (drying oil binder)
(source: product MSDS)

Sarco Dual Glaze
(the same as Type M above, source: Justin Smith)

GLAZOL® GLAZING COMPOUND
GROUND LIMESTONE 80 (aggregate filler)
SOYBEAN OIL BLEND 10 (drying oil binder)
POLYBUTENE <5 (plasticizer and extender)
STODDARD SOLVENT <5 (mild solvent similar to mineral spirits)
MONTMORILLONITE <5 (clay)
source: product MSDS, http://tinyurl.com/6rwwxej

GLAZOL® PAINTER’S PUTTY
GROUND LIMESTONE 85 (aggregate filler)
SOYBEAN OIL BLEND 10 (drying oil binder)
POLYBUTENE <5 (plasticizer and extender)
STODDARD SOLVENT <5
MONTMORILLONITE <5

Dap 33
Calcium carbonate 60-100
Soya oil 3-7 (drying oil binder)
Parrafinic process oil 1-5 (non-drying waxy petroleum oil)
Tremolite 1-5 (**, silicate mineral)
Talc 1-5 (soft "slippery" mineral powder)
Antigorite 0.5-1.5 (**)
Titanium dioxide 0.1-1.0 (white pigment)
*Silica, crystalline 0.1-1.0 (**)
*Anthophyllite 0.1-1.0 (**)
*=suspected or confirmed to cause cancer.
source: product MSDS, www.dap.com/docs/msds/00010401001_english.pdf
**=probably a "contaminant" that comes along with another ingredient, because it is hard to believe they would put hazardous materials in putty on purpose

Wonder Putty
Calcium Carbonate greater than 70% (aggregate filler, includes crystalline silica)
Talc greater than 5%
Blend of Soya and Marine Oils (drying-oil binder and non-drying oil plasticizer)
Inorganic Fillers and Color Pigments
Source: Atlas Co. tech sheet and MSDS http://64.7.98.65/tech_data/wonderputty_tech.htm)(the MSDS admits there are other ingredients but keeps them a secret)

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Last edited by johnleeke on Mon May 04, 2015 3:09 pm; edited 13 times in total
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smithsash



Joined: 23 Jan 2010
Posts: 94
Location: providence, ri

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The constituent ingredients in Sarco Dual Glaze are the same as the Sarco Type M.

The difference between the two being one of proportions.

Click the link below for a PDF of a simple and versatile putty quantity calculator:

http://www.smithrestorationsash.com/windowputtyformula.html

You can down load and keep the formula on hand for easy reference. We find it an invaluable tool for quickly preparing accurate job quotes!

Best regards,

Justin Smith


Last edited by smithsash on Tue May 08, 2012 5:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A glazier with 15 years experience with commercial and residential glazing said the wobble in the sash would be solidified by re glazing. Should the glazing be relied upon to stabilize the sash?


Many modern glaziers do think this way. (just like a carpenter will solve most problems with a hammer, and a painter will solve most problems with a brush) It's true that the sash will appear more stable after glazing, but think about this: Is the purpose of the wood frame of the sash to protect the glass from breakage, or is the glass supposed to protect the frame from movement? I think the sash should be stable so it can protect the glass.

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To prevent glass moving and causing diagonal wrinkles and slumping in the putty:
-- glaze on an easel and always keep the sash with its top rail up during and after glazing
-- for smaller panes, set the bottom edge of the pain directly on the neck of the glazing rabbet
-- for larger panes, set the bottom edge of the pane on two little wooden spacer blocks between the edged of the glass and the neck of the glazing rabbet, and set spacer blocks at the side edges of the pane (make your spacer blocks out of a relatively soft wood like pine. Rubber blocks are made for the glazing trade, but you have to be sure the rubber is compatible with your sealants and putty)
-- Set the points slightly away from the glass, then push the tip of the point so it just touches the glass

(source: "Putty, Glazing and Caulking Compounds and their Application, Circular 789, Scientific Section, Nat'l Paint, Varnish & Lacquer Assoc., May 1962, which Ed Sarsfield sent to me last month.)

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blgaarder



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Location: Saint Paul, MN

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:59 pm    Post subject: How to maintain stick glazing? Reply with quote

John,

You have commented that stick glazing requires a different type of maintenance.

What would that be?

I have one exterior window that has stick glazing and I want to have the paint stripped and repainted.

What should be done with the glazing?

Should I have the contractor convert to putty glazing?

Would there be the equivalent of points holding the glass?

Doesn't sound like it, but I suppose that you could remove the wood strip from one side at a time and push in points.

If I leave the wood, should I have them put a thin bead of some type of sealant along the glass/wood interface before painting?

Thanks
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What should be done with the [stick] glazing? Should I have the contractor convert to putty glazing?


If the stick glazing has worked well in the past, stay with stick glazing.

Points are not needed with stick glazing.

Usually stick glazing is fastened to the stiles and rails with brads or screws. If the sticks are in good condition re-use the sticks and fasten with new brads in new locations or screws in the same locations. If the screws are in good condition they can be reused.

With traditional methods the sticks are set in a bed of putty between the stick and glass and between the stick and the neck of the glazing rabbet. Contemporary sealants or caulks can be used, but if the sealant is too adhesive it can glue the stick to the glass and glazing rabbet making future maintenance and repairs difficult at best and damaging to the glazing rabbet at worst.

For stick glazing to be durable over the long-term, the sticks need to be rectangular in section and large enough (3/4" x 3/4" or so) to be stable and not warp or split. Triangular section sticks have acute arrises that lead to deterioration, especially if they are smaller than 3/4".

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Bedding in modern sealants and caulks Reply with quote

Why not bed the panes in modern high-performance sealants or caulks, as many window restoration specialist now do?

I still bed and front glaze with traditional putty. I do this because when I look at old windows I can see exactly how well it works.

Every time I deglaze old sashes, I can easily see how traditionally bedded panes fail. The linseed oil and whiting putty fails by continuing to oxidize, cracking, and becoming crumbly. Then it is relatively easy to remove without damage to the wood or glass. The traditional window system is designed to "fail gracefully," making my round of maintenance on these windows easier. This actual evidence holds a lot of weight to me.

In the mid-1970s I did a round of comparison field tests on new basement sash made of Costal Atlantic Cedar, which is somewhat decay resistant. I glazed the panes in with traditional methods & materials, and with modern butyl caulk. This was a high moisture situation with no gutters at the eaves above. After 20 years the butyl caulk was still all in place and in good condition, but it had lost some of it's seal with the wood at the lower rails and let in moisture, trapped it there and the cedar was rotting out. In contrast, the traditional putty at the bottom rails after 16 years had cracked, and begun to fall out. The wood of the rail could dry out so it was not decayed. It was a simple matter to do spot re-glazing. At 20 years the remaining original traditional glazing and newer spot re-glazing was doing well.

The results of this testing is why I have used traditional methods and materials in most of my window preservation work since then.

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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:17 am    Post subject: Cold Weather Glazing Reply with quote

I have used Sarco DualGlaze down to 25F. outdoors in January. Kept it warm in the cab of the pickup, and inside my coat. Warmed up the sash, glass and the putty on the sash with a hot air gun. Kept the putty knife warm up my coat sleeve when not in use. I did not do anything to keep the putty warm after glazing. Came back to it in the spring for painting and it looked OK. Has 3 years on it and still going good. I expect any of the traditional oil putties or glazing compounds would work the same.

In the 1990s I used PermElastic glazing compound during cold (frost at night) fall weather at cabins up in the Rocky Mountains, although I have not been back to check it out.

Definitely do not use any waterborne glazing compound in temperatures below 40 F.

It's always best to do painting and glazing at 50 F. or above for longest durability.

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by hammer and hand great works do stand
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Last edited by johnleeke on Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Doug Upah writes,

I'm a carpenter/cabinetmaker/window restorer in Iowa. I live in the historic Amana Colonies and we are loosing aprox. 4 or 5 houses a year to vinyl windows. Not sure that we can change the trend, most of the people here have grown up with the historic windows and are tired of trying to repair/maintain the old windows. We have an annex building with countless old sashes just sitting there waiting in limbo. I'm trying to see what I can do to change this trend. Most of the windows here are made up of 9 over 6's, 6 over 6's, some church windows with 12 over 9's and a few 2 over 2's.

I prime my sashes with linseed oil based primer from Diamond Vogel, as far as I can tell they are the only paint company around that still has linseed oil primer, its marketed as SureSeal. Around here the old timers have always told me that linseed oil primer was very good but hard to find. I do the BLO on the glaze rabbet, sometimes the sureseal and do not see any difference with my glaze adhering to the wood.


Doug, I really like these regional paint companies. I just talked with Perry at Diamond Vogel. I asked him about "SureSeal" and they don't seam to have a product with that name. He did tell me about the following two Diamond Vogel products, which would work well with my method of painting and glazing sash.

Grain Stain Exterior Semi-Transparent Oil Stain (Natural Base, clear) # AG0320
This product contains Linseed oil, alkyd resin, solvents, and driers. I suspect it is very similar to the Flood product Penetrol, which I use as a pre-treatment on sash.
Apply this to clean bare old wood on sash the same way I describe for "pre-treatment." Apply one flooding coat, to all surfaces except side, top and bottom edges; plus some extra at joints to soak into the joints; wipe off any extra that does not soak in within 10 minutes; it should all soak in, do not build up a coating on the wood surface; allow to dry. There should still be "open" grain at the wood surface after drying.

Prime-O-Seal # AU-1404 oil-based linseed oil primer.
Apply to the pre-treated surfaces, but do not apply to glazing rabbets that have been pre-treated.

Then apply two Diamond Vogel oil-based or waterborne topcoats of your choice. Check with Diamond Vogel to assure your topcoats are compatible with Prime-O-Seal.

For more on glazing and painting sash see this discussion:
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=955
or the chapter on glazing and painting sash in the new edition of Save America's Windows:

http://www.historichomeworks.com/hhw/reports/reports.htm#Windows

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DougAU



Joined: 25 May 2013
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Location: Amana, Iowa

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry John, it is Prime-O-Seal, I don't know where I got the sure-seal but I've been using that name for a long time, maybe that's why I get funny looks at the paint store?

from the description of Prime-O-Seal;
Apply to the pre-treated surfaces, but do not apply to glazing rabbets that have been pre-treated.

I don't ever use it on pre-treated rabbets but I do use it with good results on old sashes where I'm doing a complete re-do. If I'm just replacing a broken window I use BLO but I'm switching to one of the mixtures that I've read about on here, BLO-Penitrol-Turp or some combination of those ingredients.

I used Prime-O-Seal with two coats of Diamond Vogel latex paint on some garage doors that I built 16 years ago and there is no sign of needing paint yet. I also used the same combination on some dormers at the same house that date back maybe 18 years and I'm starting to see some areas that may need attention soon.
I know that's a very small sample and nothing scientific about my study but I feel that I am getting good results from the paint.
I've done a lot of sashes with all sorts of combinations of paint but I pretty much stick to DV primer now, just works for me.

Doug
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johnleeke
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I shoot diamond and triangle points with a point driver and then if they need to go in further I tap them in with a light tack hammer (that I have shaped on the bench grinder to act like a glazing hammer) or with a heavy 2" wide carpenter's framing chisel (as shown in the glazing section of Audels Carpenters and Builders Guide, and on page 93 of Save America's Windows.)
When I have hundreds of panes to glaze I adapt a point driver so that it will set the points to the correct depth immediately. To set the points deeper I grind down the two little toes at the front of the point driver's shoe. To set the points shallower I stick a little piece of wood onto the front of the driver.

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